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Old 30.07.2011, 23:41
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Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

Hi

Would really appreciate some general advice. I am moving to Geneva in Sept to take up a post at an international organisation for 4-5 years. My husband will be remaining in the UK for at least the next 2 years - we jointly own a house, and I plan to visit the UK at least once a fortnight.

The advice from the organisation I am going to work for - which they give to any new employees from the EU - is live in France and become a frontalier with a G permit. (Although for my first few weeks they are putting me up in a company owned flat in Geneva itself - so I will begin with a B permit).

The idea of living in France attracts me - but before I come to a decision I would like to know whether it might be disastrous in tax terms. I know I will pay tax in Switzerland deducted at source. But if I live in France - although the tax I have paid in Geneva will be 'credited' to me - will I need to pay extra taxes (because French income tax rates are higher than Swiss?)?

And then there is the question of my UK status - I certainly won't be cutting my ties with the UK - and additionally I will continue to have some income here - a small pension and some investments based on an inheritance. WHat will be my UK tax situation?

Is it beneficial to try and be 'resident' in Switzerland, UK or France - or indeed will I be resident in 2 or even 3 of the countries (and what will be the tax implications of this?) So far I haven't found an accountant near me who can answer my questions ... they are not used to dealing with exotic queries like this

Tax; Residency;frontalier
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Old 31.07.2011, 10:45
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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Hi

Would really appreciate some general advice. I am moving to Geneva in Sept to take up a post at an international organisation for 4-5 years. My husband will be remaining in the UK for at least the next 2 years - we jointly own a house, and I plan to visit the UK at least once a fortnight.

The advice from the organisation I am going to work for - which they give to any new employees from the EU - is live in France and become a frontalier with a G permit. (Although for my first few weeks they are putting me up in a company owned flat in Geneva itself - so I will begin with a B permit).

The idea of living in France attracts me - but before I come to a decision I would like to know whether it might be disastrous in tax terms. I know I will pay tax in Switzerland deducted at source. But if I live in France - although the tax I have paid in Geneva will be 'credited' to me - will I need to pay extra taxes (because French income tax rates are higher than Swiss?)?

And then there is the question of my UK status - I certainly won't be cutting my ties with the UK - and additionally I will continue to have some income here - a small pension and some investments based on an inheritance. WHat will be my UK tax situation?

Is it beneficial to try and be 'resident' in Switzerland, UK or France - or indeed will I be resident in 2 or even 3 of the countries (and what will be the tax implications of this?) So far I haven't found an accountant near me who can answer my questions ... they are not used to dealing with exotic queries like this

Tax; Residency;frontalier
It looks like you will still be tax resident in the UK as you are not breaking ties & leaving permantly. There has been some recent discussions, you should search Robert Gains-Cooper. You need to take professional advive from a UK tax lawyer.

You will be taxed at source in Geneva, if that is more than 90% of your income then you would not be taxed further if living in France, however your other investments might lead to CGT in France or in the UK or possibly both.

There is no CGT in CH, however if you were born in the UK then you will still be liable in the UK CGT for several years after 'leaving' the UK-

Both CH & F have wealth taxes, In F you wont be liable for the first 5 years of residence.

http://www.taxbar.com/documents/GainesCooper_chdiv.pdf

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/hmrc6.pdf

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/p85.pdf You should start off by filling in a P85, one of the questions ask if a spouse remains in the UK & if the move is permanant.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 31.07.2011 at 11:10. Reason: adding links
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Old 31.07.2011, 16:21
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

Thanks very much - that is a helpful tip and lead
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Old 31.07.2011, 17:27
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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Thanks very much - that is a helpful tip and lead
I don't relly think you have any way out unless your husband also leaves the UK, so that you can claim a permanant departure. It's permanant if you not intending to return to the UK when you sign the form, if you do return 5 years later it does not matter.

Do you travel for work? To be a French tax resident you have to be in France 183 days, with possibly 60 days in the UK, Holidays & business travel you could be under that 183 days,
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Old 31.07.2011, 18:48
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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Is it beneficial to try and be 'resident' in Switzerland, UK or France - or indeed will I be resident in 2 or even 3 of the countries (and what will be the tax implications of this?) So far I haven't found an accountant near me who can answer my questions ... they are not used to dealing with exotic queries like this
You've got potentially quite a tricky tax situation ahead of you, both in terms of your continuing ties in the UK as well as your possible frontalier status. You absolutely should seek out specialist advice and be confident you understand the implications of your decisions before you make up your mind about anything.

There are a number of firms that specialise in this sort of thing -- the one that I know is http://www.blevinsfranks.com/ but there are others as well. A few hundred quid spent on advice now could potentially save you a lot of accountants bills and unnecessary tax payments later.

If your French is up to it, you can read a lot about how the Frontalier tax is handled on this website: http://www.frontalier.org/index.htm

The Frontalier situation is pretty straight-forward. Once you understand that, you can speak with a tax specialist who can help you understand what ongoing tax liabilities you'd likely have with the UK.
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Old 31.07.2011, 20:23
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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There are a number of firms that specialise in this sort of thing -- the one that I know is http://www.blevinsfranks.com/ but there are others as well. .
They seem rather too keen on life insurance bonds for me, I would run a mile, Speak to a Tax lawyer or accountant it may cost more than a few hundred!

'Blevins Franks Financial Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the UK Financial Services Authority only for the conduct of investment and pension business.'
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Old 31.07.2011, 21:09
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

Dear fatmanfilms,

I'm sure you're trying to be helpful, but you seem to know just enough about tax law to be dangerous. On this thread and others, you offer advice that is well-intentioned, but wrong and misleading.

Blevins Franks are investment advisors, regulated by the FSA. Among the many things they do is offer specialist advice to UK residents living abroad, who may or may not be UK tax residents. In other words, exactly the situation the original poster has outlined.

On their own website, they say:

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As all of Blevins Franks Financial Management Limitedís advisers within Europe and the UK are fully authorised and regulated by the UK Financial Services Authority, we are perfectly placed to provide UK tax resident clients with homes overseas with a seamless and comprehensive range of UK tax, investment management and pension solutions for their wealth.
The original poster was having trouble finding specialist advisors; I suggested one. You've come along and said they're not qualified (they are, but that's an aside) and you've offered no better alternative.

They're not the only ones around, but they are a start for the original poster to ask her questions. I found them at the French property show when I was looking at buying a house in France, and they specialise in Brits living abroad. They publish a 200+ page book each year offering tax advice for British expats. That suggests to me that they might know what they're talking about.

Maybe it's safer if you just stick to offering advice on film making, where you're qualified to give it?
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Old 31.07.2011, 21:58
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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The original poster was having trouble finding specialist advisors; I suggested one. You've come along and said they're not qualified (they are, but that's an aside) and you've offered no better alternative.
I have never stated they are not qualified, however they are only regulated by the FSA for the conduct of investment and pension business. Such people often call themselves 'Financial Advisors'.

They are therefore qualified to sell life insurance & pensions, their site does not give any details of professional qualifications. They state they are perfectly placed, they don't use the word qualified. The FSA does not regulate tax advice as far as I can see from their website.

Did you by any chance buy any insurance related products from them?

Best regards FMF
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Old 31.07.2011, 23:18
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

http://fta.uk.com/FTA/index.html

FTA OBJECTIVES
The object of The Federation of Tax Advisers is to:
  • bring regulation to a hitherto unregulated area
  • establish an enforceable Code of Practice
  • demonstrate proper standards of competence, accuracy and confidentiality
  • demand the highest standards from its members.

It would appear as I suspected that Tax Advisers are an unregulated at present in the UK.

However 1 of the principles thier Finance & Operations Director, Michael Pace Balzan is a Chartered Accountant

http://www.blevinsfranks.com/en/cont...ipals_Overview

It's quite possible that they give perfectly good advise, I am suspicious by nature, I would be happy to be proved wrong about 'qualifications & regulation'

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 31.07.2011 at 23:47. Reason: adding link of principles
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Old 01.08.2011, 07:08
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I don't relly think you have any way out unless your husband also leaves the UK, so that you can claim a permanant departure.
This is not necessarily true. If your husband remains in the UK but intends to join you later you can explain this in your HMRC forms. It's worth downloading all the relevant forms and explanatory documents from the HMRC website and scrutinising them to understand what sort of information HMRC asks for and considers relevant. You will probably not get a straight answer from HMRC until you actually file the papers so even a tax accountant will only be able to advise, not give you a guarantee.

I am not a tax expert, though I have direct personal experience of this and have studied some tax accountancy for my own interest, but in my opinion the number of days you visit the UK is likely to be the main issue. Over 90 days you will automatically be consider tax liable and its very easy to reach this figure if you are visiting 'at least once a fortnight', presumably fri-sun/mon? Even below that though, the issue of ties to the UK that fatmanfilms mentions may lead HMRC to consider you resident. You have to declare how many days you intend to be back each year as well as the days you have actually been back, and if you are regularly back with your own home and your husband having no plans to move, presumably also taking advantage of UK services such as the NHS for you and your partner, it won't look good.

I know nothing of frontalier rules, but if that is just the standard advice given by your employer it may be completely unsuitable for your situation. My gut instinct is to avoid complicating the situation even further and focus on dealing with only 2 tax authorities, making plans to be permanently resident outside the UK (if that is what you want). But that is where you definitely need some professional advice.
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Old 01.08.2011, 09:18
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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Hi

Would really appreciate some general advice. I am moving to Geneva in Sept to take up a post at an international organisation for 4-5 years.
If working for a recognised IGO, you would normally be exempt from paying tax on your IGO income. If NGO, they often have preferential income tax agreements with the swiss as well. Are you sure you would be subject to tax at source?, seems very odd.
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Old 01.08.2011, 11:45
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

I had a discussion with a friend who is a solicitor today (specialising in trusts, probate, etc, and also residency as it relates to her clients) and he told me that the law in the UK is changing and the 90 days rule will become a more definitive test of residency in UK, such that severing ties will not be necessary if you do not exceed 90 days. This has not yet been enacted but if I get a reliable source of further info I will post it here.

He also suggested that advice on the OP's position could be obtained from either a lawyer or an accountant but it has to be one that specialises in this area and there is no definitive qualification that indicates this. In theory a lawyer that in STEP qualified (trusts and estates) should be the best bet though.
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Old 01.08.2011, 12:02
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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I had a discussion with a friend who is a solicitor today (specialising in trusts, probate, etc, and also residency as it relates to her clients) and he told me that the law in the UK is changing and the 90 days rule will become a more definitive test of residency in UK, such that severing ties will not be necessary if you do not exceed 90 days
Unlike HMRC to have something so black-and-white non-negotiable yes-no. I'll believe it when I see it ;)
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Old 01.08.2011, 12:41
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

Actually I am not particularly wanting to get non-resident status in the UK. And I know we will return here eventually.

I am fairly new to this game - what is the big advantage in becoming non-resident in the UK? (Lots of people seem to try for that - but I can't work out just why it is so advantageous - unless you have much more capital assets than I do)
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Old 01.08.2011, 13:25
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As. A uk resident you will have to pay tax on your :Swiss employment , very little is deductible , with the current exchange rate could be expensive .
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Old 01.08.2011, 13:59
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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I am fairly new to this game - what is the big advantage in becoming non-resident in the UK? (Lots of people seem to try for that - but I can't work out just why it is so advantageous - unless you have much more capital assets than I do)
It's advantageous if the country where you'll be working has lower taxes -- income taxes, capital gains, wealth, etc.

At higher income levels, Switzerland has lower income taxes than the UK, and depending on which canton you live in, these differences can be considerable. But to profit from them, you need to lose your UK residency so that you're not liable to UK taxation.
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Old 01.08.2011, 14:11
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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However 1 of the principles thier Finance & Operations Director, Michael Pace Balzan is a Chartered Accountant

http://www.blevinsfranks.com/en/cont...ipals_Overview

It's quite possible that they give perfectly good advise, I am suspicious by nature, I would be happy to be proved wrong about 'qualifications & regulation'
You've only done half your homework. Of the four principals, there are only two who are likely to offer advice to clients:

David Franks: Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales as well as a member of the Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners.

Bill Blevins: Bill has been involved in international private client investment and tax planning for over 40 years and now regularly lectures on these subjects both in the UK and overseas. He is a Member of the International Tax Planning Association and the author of numerous books on specialist expatriate investment and tax matters.

On the face of it, these guys both seem pretty qualified to offer advice. But given that they offer services in 20 countries, it's pretty unlikely you'll be dealing with either of the top guys unless you've got very deep pockets. So you'll have to assume that the team they put forward will be equally qualified.

The guy you cite, Michael Balzan, almost certainly doesn't do any client-facing business. He's a sort of CFO/COO in one, but his focus is internal. And the fourth guy, Colin Vickers, is a salesman.

I have no association with this firm except a short tax-planning conversation a few years ago. I don't guarantee that they're the best in the business, nor the worst. But I do know this much: this is what they advertise is their bread-and-butter. Their whole business is designed around expat wealth management (including tax planning), and they're as close to specialists as I know.
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Old 01.08.2011, 16:50
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Unlike HMRC to have something so black-and-white non-negotiable yes-no. I'll believe it when I see it
Me too I must admit!!! He has promised to send me some info. Whatever the changes are, it does also demonstrate how difficult it is to stay abreast of current regulations, and potentially misleading to rely on others experiences or dated forum threads etc.
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Old 01.08.2011, 16:58
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Actually I am not particularly wanting to get non-resident status in the UK. And I know we will return here eventually.

I am fairly new to this game - what is the big advantage in becoming non-resident in the UK? (Lots of people seem to try for that - but I can't work out just why it is so advantageous - unless you have much more capital assets than I do)
In addition to Village Idiot's summary, you should also bear in mind that you would end up paying twice over for things like healthcare (if you live in CH) and local taxes. It's not about capital wealth at all for most ordinary people, it's about paying much higher income tax if you are resident in 2 countries (because many services in the UK are paid for out of income tax which you pay for separately in Switzerland so they cannot be offset under dual tax agreement) and then on top of that you are living in a place with a higher cost of living, and probably spending quite a lot of money flying back and forth. If the money really is no issue them you might as well stay resident in the UK and not have to worry about it, but for most people the difference in disposable income is too great to ignore.
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Old 01.08.2011, 17:01
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Re: Tax and residency in Geneva, France and UK

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It's advantageous if the country where you'll be working has lower taxes -- income taxes, capital gains, wealth, etc.

At higher income levels, Switzerland has lower income taxes than the UK, and depending on which canton you live in, these differences can be considerable. But to profit from them, you need to lose your UK residency so that you're not liable to UK taxation.
And don't end up being resident in Switzerland but with your income in £
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