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  #81  
Old 22.09.2011, 08:38
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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There are a lot of people in Switzerland who are struggling to make ends meet. I would love to be making as much as you because it would solve a few issues in my life.

Although your question may be valid, it's also invokes jealousy and wishful thinking on many an expat part.

I think the snarky comments are just as fair as the well-meant comments in regards to your question.
I disagree....the snarky comments were borderline mean and would not have been made to the OPs face. Questioning his intelligence or right to earn a good salary goes (in my mind) beyond the limits of "banter". I think by half way down page 1 he got the message that he'd been insensitive and naive, and other people just piling on the insults for another two pages felt like bullying the new kid at school because he got a question right in class. He's coming here for a good salary.....good for him
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  #82  
Old 22.09.2011, 08:41
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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Seems to me you havent been reading enough of these types of threads!
Just because it happens often doesn't mean it is right. And I think that because the money was higher, the response was more vitriolic than I saw previously. I hope none of the Glencore guys post here
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Old 22.09.2011, 08:47
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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All,

Thanks for all the comments. Needless to say this was a great way for me to get acquainted with English Forum...

...Be sure that there will be more posts from me and to annoy the few who are already annoyed I wont use the search function!!
Welcome to the forum and Switzerland, Tiger12345. Congratulations on the sweet salary package, too. It's extremely different to Japan here, but you'll be fine. It's a shame that Japan has had to deal with so much recently (with all the typhoons now, too ), but I can definitely understand your decision to move.

I would tend to agree with the rest of the EFers saying that one car is enough, and public schools are great etc. Your 5 year old could probably go to kindergarten (not school), I think. You'll notice that life here is far less sedentary here. People will cycle the 10km up a big hill and down the other side to get to work. You'll see Mums out on a bike with her kids in a twin bike trailer, exploring the forests and riverside paths. I'd definitely recommend that your wife get involved in the local community with the kids. If she's not working, she can make connections more easily, learn the culture/language and feel less isolated. Tip: Identify a couple of neighbours with kids and drop by with a home-baked cake or something one morning. Worked a charm for me. Don't expect to be invited in and showered with praise and niceties like in Japan. The Swiss take their sweet time with these things and MAY seem a little cool.

Where in Zurich is your job? Right in the centre? West, East...? Depending on your office location, I would suggest getting a flat that's on the outskirts or even outside of kanton Zurich, where it's less expensive and you can take a train or bus (or bike ) in. If you're willing to live right in the middle of nowhere, you can pay as little as 1500 franks a month for a 4.5 room 130m2 (3 bedrooms, large living, dining, kitchen and two bathroom) flat. I assume you'll be used to commuting a bit in Tokyo?

Anyhow, there are indeed loads of threads with such info. I would definitely make use of the search function. So you're not a CEO... but I'm guessing you're a manager... probably one with an assistant

All the best with your new adventure and see you around. This really is a great forum once you realise we're all pretty harmless and just enjoy taking the pi$$ (high number of British and/or British colonial expats?).

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  #84  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:12
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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Personally I thank everyone for their inputs as I agree to a point that I was naive in my post without checking the forum search first! BUT I must say some of the comments would turn ppl away from this forum. Me being thick skinned is taken all being said in good humor.
If you bother looking a little deeper you will find that exactly this type of question is a very sore point amongst many of the contributors here. Particularly from someone that dodn't bother introducing himself properly. Please remember that at the moment we have more to contribute to you than vice versa. Just be grateful also that Upthehatters appears to be asleep.


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- I know the salary is net as HR told me that I wouldnt be worse off compared to my net pay in Japan
What a touching faith in HR you have . However in this case and as stated probably OK as taxes are lower in ZH than in Tokyo. As you write it it still doesn't mean you're getting that amount net, though.
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  #85  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:13
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

Ah we have a fighter, you'll fit in nicely. Keep the gloves on for a while.

Enjoy the forum feel free to ask questions sprinkled with sarcasm/trolling as you wish.

Most of the stuff has been answered before, so you'll find the answers floating around. Hence individuals like me get peeved answering the same Q's for the 100th time!

BTW I couldn't give a F what you earn, this seems to be a problem for a few on here.

My other half works at a international school so expect it to be expensive. I can probably get you some info if you PM me, but it's in Baar.

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All,

Thanks for all the comments. Needless to say this was a great way for me to get acquainted with English Forum.

To answer few of the questions raised by many:

- I am coming from Tokyo, Japan
- I know the salary is net as HR told me that I wouldnt be worse off compared to my net pay in Japan
- Tokyo cost of living is higher than Zurich from my research!
- I am not a CEO
- International school was the initial thought as we may have to relocate after 3 years and my son started international school in Tokyo last year
- Point taken re 2 cars

Personally I thank everyone for their inputs as I agree to a point that I was naive in my post without checking the forum search first! BUT I must say some of the comments would turn ppl away from this forum. Me being thick skinned is taken all being said in good humor.

Be sure that there will be more posts from me and to annoy the few who are already annoyed I wont use the search function!!

Glad that my posts have entertained ppl!
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  #86  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:26
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

The one thing I learned is not to trust HR when they tell you what your net will be and what the cost of living is.

I did a significant amount of research before I moved from Miami to Geneva (Big Mac index, iPod index, FX rates, housing cost, international school), but in the end you cannot compare two vastly different situations to the last $ and will need to live with ambiguity. You just have to come and make it work once you are reasonable comfortable. In the end money is important but not the only factor in the decision, there are a lot of intangibles that I do factor in (Health Care, Quality of schooling, Outdoor activities, Safety)

In the end we paid almost 50% more for housing than we were told and expected. It sucks but for that we don't eat out as much and much more enjoy doing stuff rather than buyings stuff so it equals out a bit.

Although I agree some comments were a bit over the top, I do think that a little bit of common sense would:
1) make people understand asking whether they can get bye on a significant salary might be sensitive to people who have financial hardship. The OP or anyone else should roughly know where their salary puts them in terms of social class.
2) A message board is an informal agreement that there is some equality between giving and taking. Now typically people start with taking information, but if there appears no intent to give (i.e. introduce yourself) or respect that what you want "has been given already before" aka search function then people that are consistently giving will start getting iffy.

Last edited by acf69; 22.09.2011 at 09:42.
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  #87  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:28
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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Tip: Identify a couple of neighbours with kids and drop by with a home-baked cake or something one morning. Worked a charm for me. Don't expect to be invited in and showered with praise and niceties like in Japan. The Swiss take their sweet time with these things and MAY seem a little cool.
Showered with praise and niceties? What on earth are you talking about? Did you ever live in Japan? I did, 6 years, left here to move there and came back so I can tell you for a fact that foreigners in Japan have very little to do with their Japanese neighbours. Foreign children attend international school and have no contact with their the local children. Foreigners may, but not always, live in neighbourhoods where many other foreign families live, though not exclusively. Taking home baked goods to a Japanese neighbour is a no-no, only store bought is appropriate and this is done when you first move into the neighbourhood, to ensure a good neighbourly relationship, but this is not to be interpreted as friendship. It is merely the done thing.

I know many, many, people who have become very good friends with their Swiss neighbours. Many of my clients are so well integrated in their neighbourhoods you would think they have been living here for years. The fact is, it depends on your neighbourhood, in some areas you will never make a Swiss friend, in others you will have many.

When I left Japan I had neighbours come to my house with sayonara gifts. I was very touched and my closest Japanese friends informed me this was really quite unusual. I was a good neighbour, like my Japanese neighbours I swept in front of my driveway (wearing the correct apron ), I never put my garbage out the night before, and I maintained my garden and picked up any garbage in front of my house. These habits die hard and the other week my neighbour brought me over 6 jars of home made jam he made.

So, be a good neighbour, thoughtful and considerate, smile a lot, learn the language and try to talk to people. If you do something wrong, apologize. It helps having children as this is often the way you meet other families with children and you may develop a friendship this way but not always, and if you do, it can take a long time. However, if your children attend international school, the neighbours may treat you very differently than if your children attend local school with their kids. A lot of foreigners do not understand this.
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  #88  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:33
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

I agree with those recommending state schools. they are certainly 1st choice here. if you come from UK you shouldn't miss the opportunity to save lots of money and still give you children an excellent education. you need a change of mentality, though. you need to realise that in continental europe state schools are the norm, private schools are for kids who can't make it there or for parents who wish a religious (ie a nuns' school) or philosophical (ie steinerian) alternative education for their kids.
your kids are still young, so send them to a local kindergarten and primary first. in the 6th years kids are prepared to pass entrance examination for gymnasium. if yours do, send them to rämibühl gymnasium - THE gymnasium in zürich with a long tradition.
it's a UNESCO school and have IB, with partly english language curriculum. which means that many foreign kids go there. very few state schools offer IB, so it's a great opportunity.

imagine the fantastic holidays and shopping you can make with what is then left over of your 175K!
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Old 22.09.2011, 09:39
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

oh, and I forgot to mention the advantages of learning (swiss) german, which your kids can only pick up in state schools (at this young age it will work perfectly). you and you wife will be envious, let me tell you, of how quickly they'll learn. soon they'll be translating for you
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Old 22.09.2011, 09:46
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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private schools are for kids who can't make it there or for parents who wish a religious (ie a nuns' school) or philosophical (ie steinerian) alternative education for their kids.
I share your passion for state schools, and especially in Switzerland they are great and in many case better than Private schools for the reasons you indicated.

However, when you have a young child and you intend to move multiple times before they graduate an international school becomes a real option. So I would propose you add those kids as the third category to your list above.
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  #91  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:51
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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you need a change of mentality, though. you need to realise that in continental europe state schools are the norm, private schools are for kids who can't make it there or for parents who wish a religious (ie a nuns' school) or philosophical (ie steinerian) alternative education for their kids.
OP indicated that his company might relocate him again in three years. If frequent international relocations are the ongoing pattern of his employment, international (private) school would be preferable for his children in order to ease future transitions and to maintain continuity of their education in a way that can be most familiar to them.

Private school is a viable option for families in transient employment situations as well as families who wish to have dual language education for their children. It can also provide opportunity for kids who want to attend university outside of Europe. Undoubtedly many children in private school would have fared fine in state schools had they attended there; it is certainly not just for "those who couldn't make it in state school."
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Old 22.09.2011, 09:59
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

2 the topicstarter - I rate your salary as 9, where 10 is maximum.

2 all. Guys, I'm lost on second page. Did he tell, where he get this offer?
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:05
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

right you are about the third category I'd left out. my oversight about the impending relocation. in that case an international school is certainly interesting. not all are as good as they sound, though and enough has been said in other threads about that.

OP's kids are really small, though. they'd have much more fun blending in with "normal" kids.
at the end of the day it's all quite subjective. only he and his family can have the gut feeling that tells them what's best for them.
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:06
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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What people are asking when they say, can I live on 175k in Zurich is, can I have the same lifestyle as I did...
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I think by half way down page 1 he got the message that he'd been insensitive and naive, and other people just piling on the insults for another two pages felt like bullying the new kid at school because he got a question right in class. He's coming here for a good salary.....good for him
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BTW I couldn't give a F what you earn, this seems to be a problem for a few on here.
Exactly what these guys said, couldn't have said it better myself.

Granted that using the search function is a must, of course, but we were all newbies at some point

OP, good luck with your move! I will leave the advice part to other more qualified EFers, since I don't have children and therefore I am at the moment unconcerned with issues regarding schools, etc.
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:12
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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OP's kids are really small, though. they'd have much more fun blending in with "normal" kids.
Ok, now you got me. Are you saying kids in International Schools are not "normal"?
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:14
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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It can also provide opportunity for kids who want to attend university outside of Europe.
FYI International Baccalaureate is recognized internationally for admission at universities worldwide.
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:17
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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Ok, now you got me. Are you saying kids in International Schools are not "normal"?
god forbid. I went to a wonderful one myself and I wish I could send my kids there
just that - as (AGAIN) has been pointed out in preceding posts and many other threads - it's easier to blend in and make friends if you socialise with all kinds of kids and not just the happy few.
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:28
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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Kinda worrying that one can get to a position with that sort of package attached without knowing whether said package is good or not for the local market.
my relocation agent told me over lunch long time ago that the higher in the food chain they are the less they know and the more helpless they are (without their wives)
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:43
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

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in the 6th years kids are prepared to pass entrance examination for gymnasium. if yours do, send them to rämibühl gymnasium - THE gymnasium in zürich with a long tradition.
it's a UNESCO school and have IB, with partly english language curriculum. which means that many foreign kids go there. very few state schools offer IB, so it's a great opportunity.
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FYI International Baccalaureate is recognized internationally for admission at universities worldwide.
I realize that IB gets you into universities worldwide. I fail to understand the logic of your response to my pointing out that attending an international school, many of which offer the IB programme, may be advantageous to OP's children, by emphasizing your example of a single gymnasium in Zurich that offers IB.

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god forbid. I went to a wonderful one myself and I wish I could send my kids there
just that - as (AGAIN) has been pointed out in preceding posts and many other threads - it's easier to blend in and make friends if you socialise with all kinds of kids and not just the happy few.
There are many kinds of kids at international schools (hence the name). I assume your comment about them all being "happy" refers to your perception of their privilege? Why are you generalizing in such a way?

If you truly believe, as you said, that the OP should trust his gut feeling as far as his children's schooling is concerned, explain the reasons for your opinions a bit, or just stick to facts. If you had a bad experience with international school or have some support for insinuating that the students there are not normal, not fun, too privileged, or whatever, then say it outright! That will be much more helpful to the OP as opposed to just "hinting around."
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Old 22.09.2011, 11:34
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Re: Please rate salary package and help!! [175K, 2 adults+2 kids, Zürich]

I'm afraid my english simply isn't good enough. I was simply trying to give advice based on our experience. and I did admit having overseeing his relocation plans, which make an international school certainly interesting.

my personal experience with international schools is positive and if we were planning to relocate soon I would try to send me kids to one, too.
the negative aspect (like not transparent quality standards or fees) have been sufficiently dealt with in other threads, for which the search button does wonders.
I consider the discussion closed for me, because it seems to be getting personal and I am not interested in this kind of polemic exchange, just in reciprocal, positive support. it's not helping OP either.
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