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View Poll Results: How long does the euro have left?
Monday 4 3.85%
Before/near Xmas 12 11.54%
Mid-February 34 32.69%
It'll stay intact due to an overnight hallmark 54 51.92%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

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  #301  
Old 21.06.2012, 14:26
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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It was from the very beginning like that...haven't you noticed? Now, if you'd excuse me, I have to check up the drahma/euro exchange rate...

Is it just me or as soon as we try to get to the root of the problems and start blaming the Greeks...some characters over here get easily irritated?

It is all Greek to me
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  #302  
Old 21.06.2012, 14:36
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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It is all Greek to me
Ha ha..I meant stop blaming the Greeks..

Anyways...for the Afab and the likes...what is UE for some countries? (third gear): we suddenly cannot produce anything over there, we have to buy German, buy Dutch..buy everything else, except our own products..that means free market, fair enough, but the starting point was not the same for everyone. That would make a subject for such a loooong disscusion, I really haven't got that time today. Sorry.
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  #303  
Old 21.06.2012, 14:52
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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http://www.benzin-preis.ch/
Though, on 2nd look, it isn't super-complete.
Interesting, so the prices haven't dropped over there, but over here it has shed almost 60c/gal in a few months. The weaker the global demand is for fuel (meaning that there's less production), the cheaper it gets and, the weaker the euro gets, it gets even cheaper in the US. Economics is truly one of the more interesting of the soft sciences...so many variables.

And is that article about the G20 right with the UK debt-to-GDP figure? almost 500%?! JFC on a pogo stick....
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  #304  
Old 21.06.2012, 15:09
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Wher you get that number from?

Graph Showing UK National Debt National debt UK : ONS



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.
.
.
.


And is that article about the G20 right with the UK debt-to-GDP figure? almost 500%?! JFC on a pogo stick....
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  #305  
Old 21.06.2012, 15:12
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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Wher you get that number from?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18496985

Though I misread it as 481 not 421, still...if that's not a typo, holy cow.
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  #306  
Old 21.06.2012, 15:17
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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...
Is it just me or as soon as we try to get to the root of the problems and start blaming the Greeks...some characters over here get easily irritated?
If this were the root of the problems, Greece, EU and the Euro would'nt have the crisis now, but at least one decade ago, if not 3.

Greek (and not only Greek) public admininstration was bad in 1981, so it was in 1941. No news from that side.



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Well, the money that Greece gets from outside goes to three distinct "sink-holes":
- repay foreign debt, the real reason Greece has been kept on life-support since it was discovered it's essentially broke
- pay salaries
- and pensions
...
Why "sink-holes"? If these 3 items were OK (i.e. if they were guaranteed by Brussels) there would not be any crisis at all.


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...
All the rest is really on a death-spiral (energy-sector, health-sector - you name it and it's on the brink of a complete meltdown) - because neither the state nor people have money and thus nobody pays bills, slowly draining any imports (hospitals and pharmacies owe billions to Roche, Novartis, GSK....
...
Even if Greece had big amounts of tax income and millions of good rich scandinavian tax payers (of whatever business), it would maybe give some relief here and there, but not solve the crisis. As the crisis is European and institutional, not Greek and not about ethnics.


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...
If it wasn't so sad, one could joke about Al Qaida setting up shop there shortly, as it's close to being a failed state.... not unlike Somalia etc.
...
Don't exaggerate. True that many Greek and Spanish (and many Americans, too) lost their jobs, their houses, their funds,

but they don't get killed by Shabab, in war, and they are not starving to death.


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first of all i said: i have no clue, thats why im asking.
...
None of us has a real clue. If we all had, there wouldn't be any crisis.

The point is that it's simply not plausible at all that Greek or mediterranean dolce vita caused the crisis,

as lacks in administration and government matters are not really a new thing in many countries, and you simply cannot tell me that international markets need 10 or 30 years to realize that.

Nothing has changed in Greece from when it still had its some triple A towards it B minus (O brave new world that has such creatures in it).

I don't want to blame the markets for lacking in trust towards Greece and the EU,

but of course if a strong European administration (or its leading members like Germany and France) had undertaken measures to regain the market's trust (with statements like "OK; see that among the European idea is solirarity - besides other shared interests and values like cooperation, coordination, law systems and others - and some countries like Germany had a huge profit from this crisis and its causes, we see that what we did wrong is not to build up yet a strong European coordination institutiont; so whatever happens we are all responsible for these lacks and we do take the burden together.") the crisis' problems would be minor ones. However, quite nothing like that ever happened. In the contrary, Sarkozy and Merkel tried to play the nationalist card in being short-run Scrooge-blind and by blaming the others.


Besides that racist "PI(I)GS" and lazy-southeners-diction. Sounds really like the antisemitic "marranos" campaigns during the crusades and reconquista. Sick.


Cheers
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  #307  
Old 21.06.2012, 15:40
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Yup. I C. Around 500%.
That's the personal debt. Guess that's the total of overdrafts, credit cards, mortgages etc.
Also worrying. But not Euro related.

Our interactive graphic shows how deeply in hock we all are

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...rld-debt-guide


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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18496985

Though I misread it as 481 not 421, still...if that's not a typo, holy cow.
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  #308  
Old 23.06.2012, 19:13
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@bucentaure: i know, many people dont have a clue, "supervision"! none of us the complete view and tools to fix it. but these links, hints and opinions from people that follow(ed) the crisis from day one or with a closer look and different sources gave me so far enough information to stop thinking: greek, lazy, overpaid, corrupt, pay no taxes, all their fault. not that i thought that as i know often the problem rooted deeper and those fingerpointing were profiting from it...voila!
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  #309  
Old 26.06.2012, 18:54
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Something to bring joy and happiness the hearts of the Euro sceptics.

EU unveils its vision for the future of monetary union



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18592135
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  #310  
Old 26.06.2012, 21:49
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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Something to bring joy and happiness the hearts of the Euro sceptics.

EU unveils its vision for the future of monetary union



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18592135

Interesting that this is proposed by 4 Presidents - none of whom was actually elected.

Hello EU monetary union
Goodbye Democracy

So the proposal is that all EU finances are run by a non-elected group who cannot be fired by the voters.
1984 has arrived although a little late
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  #311  
Old 26.06.2012, 22:07
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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If this were the root of the problems, Greece, EU and the Euro would'nt have the crisis now, but at least one decade ago, if not 3.

Greek (and not only Greek) public admininstration was bad in 1981, so it was in 1941. No news from that side.





Why "sink-holes"? If these 3 items were OK (i.e. if they were guaranteed by Brussels) there would not be any crisis at all.




Even if Greece had big amounts of tax income and millions of good rich scandinavian tax payers (of whatever business), it would maybe give some relief here and there, but not solve the crisis. As the crisis is European and institutional, not Greek and not about ethnics.




Don't exaggerate. True that many Greek and Spanish (and many Americans, too) lost their jobs, their houses, their funds,

but they don't get killed by Shabab, in war, and they are not starving to death.




None of us has a real clue. If we all had, there wouldn't be any crisis.

The point is that it's simply not plausible at all that Greek or mediterranean dolce vita caused the crisis,

as lacks in administration and government matters are not really a new thing in many countries, and you simply cannot tell me that international markets need 10 or 30 years to realize that.

Nothing has changed in Greece from when it still had its some triple A towards it B minus (O brave new world that has such creatures in it).

I don't want to blame the markets for lacking in trust towards Greece and the EU,

but of course if a strong European administration (or its leading members like Germany and France) had undertaken measures to regain the market's trust (with statements like "OK; see that among the European idea is solirarity - besides other shared interests and values like cooperation, coordination, law systems and others - and some countries like Germany had a huge profit from this crisis and its causes, we see that what we did wrong is not to build up yet a strong European coordination institutiont; so whatever happens we are all responsible for these lacks and we do take the burden together.") the crisis' problems would be minor ones. However, quite nothing like that ever happened. In the contrary, Sarkozy and Merkel tried to play the nationalist card in being short-run Scrooge-blind and by blaming the others.


Besides that racist "PI(I)GS" and lazy-southeners-diction. Sounds really like the antisemitic "marranos" campaigns during the crusades and reconquista. Sick.


Cheers
Accepting Greece into the euro was always a strange EU decision; in one year Greece apparently went from a huge budget deficit to no deficit which was always hard to swallow.

Nevertheless joining the euro was overall good for Greece; for many years they could borrow money at low interest rates & recently could also write off most/many of these debts.
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  #312  
Old 26.06.2012, 22:10
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Sorry that you feel this way citizen!
But you have already voted.
Your vote certainly counts
Please feel free to register your disapproval with the commissar

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Interesting that this is proposed by 4 Presidents - none of whom was actually elected.

Hello EU monetary union
Goodbye Democracy

So the proposal is that all EU finances are run by a non-elected group who cannot be fired by the voters.
1984 has arrived although a little late
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  #313  
Old 26.06.2012, 22:27
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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So the proposal is that all EU finances are run by a non-elected group who cannot be fired by the voters.
1984 has arrived although a little late
How many central banks are run by elected people who can be fired by the voters?
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  #314  
Old 26.06.2012, 22:34
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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Interesting that this is proposed by 4 Presidents - none of whom was actually elected.

Hello EU monetary union
Goodbye Democracy

So the proposal is that all EU finances are run by a non-elected group who cannot be fired by the voters.
1984 has arrived although a little late
People keep voting the same idiots (taking turns) into office again and again anyway - so elections are a bit overrated IMO.
It's just most obvious in Greece (and because the shit has hit the fan there already).

On a related note:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-841115.html

"Merkel: No Euro-Bonds for as long as I live".

To me, that means there are just two remaining options:
- the "Transferunion", where Germany (and maybe Austria and Finnland and Luxembourg) transfer money more or less directly to the "needy" states
- just letting the whole Euro thing die a painful death
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  #315  
Old 26.06.2012, 22:37
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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How many central banks are run by elected people who can be fired by the voters?
But central bankers are appointed by elected representatives who in turn can be fired/voted out.
For example, six members of the SNB (so a majority), including the President and Vice President, are appointed by the Federal Council.
Also taking SNB as an example SNB is obliged by Constitution and statute to act in accordance with the interests of the country as a whole.
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  #316  
Old 26.06.2012, 23:11
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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But central bankers are appointed by elected representatives who in turn can be fired/voted out.
For example, six members of the SNB (so a majority), including the President and Vice President, are appointed by the Federal Council.
Also taking SNB as an example SNB is obliged by Constitution and statute to act in accordance with the interests of the country as a whole.
Well, we'll have to see how this rolls out. Personally, I'm not sure the Euro is worth saving. I think they should find a way to spin out of this and give everyone back their own currency. But no one is ask me!
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  #317  
Old 26.06.2012, 23:29
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

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Why "sink-holes"? If these 3 items were OK (i.e. if they were guaranteed by Brussels) there would not be any crisis at all.
Except for the fact that
- pensions and salaries have been cut 20%ish
- due to lack of industry, Greece has only created jobs in the government-sector for a very long time -> it's effectively a state-run economy
- government-spending is nonexistent now
- any imports were financed by debt, which cannot be done anymore (people only export to Greece COD or cash in advance nowadays)

Thus, that alone is enough for a fat recession.


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Even if Greece had big amounts of tax income and millions of good rich scandinavian tax payers (of whatever business), it would maybe give some relief here and there, but not solve the crisis. As the crisis is European and institutional, not Greek and not about ethnics.
True. But Greece is a very obvious and bad (and eerily exaggerated) example of how the whole of Europe (or large parts of it) is run.

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Don't exaggerate. True that many Greek and Spanish (and many Americans, too) lost their jobs, their houses, their funds,

but they don't get killed by Shabab, in war, and they are not starving to death.
That layer of civilization you see, where people queue up for the tram and pay their stuff at the checkout. It's fragile and thinner than you think.
Doesn't take much to blow it away completely.

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The point is that it's simply not plausible at all that Greek or mediterranean dolce vita caused the crisis,

as lacks in administration and government matters are not really a new thing in many countries, and you simply cannot tell me that international markets need 10 or 30 years to realize that.

Nothing has changed in Greece from when it still had its some triple A towards it B minus (O brave new world that has such creatures in it).
Well, they cooked their books pretty well for a while.
And, one must not forget: people only see what they want to see.
After Bernie Madoff's ponzi-scheme went bust, it was discovered that various analysts had warned for years that his numbers didn't add up at all.
But people still bought into it.
I remember we discussed Greece briefly in the politics class in school (1992-ish) and already back then he mentioned that "even the EU commission doesn't really trust their numbers."
But politicians wanted them in the EU and EURO-zone, no matter what.


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I don't want to blame the markets for lacking in trust towards Greece and the EU,

but of course if a strong European administration (or its leading members like Germany and France) had undertaken measures to regain the market's trust (with statements like "OK; see that among the European idea is solirarity - besides other shared interests and values like cooperation, coordination, law systems and others - and some countries like Germany had a huge profit from this crisis and its causes, we see that what we did wrong is not to build up yet a strong European coordination institutiont; so whatever happens we are all responsible for these lacks and we do take the burden together.") the crisis' problems would be minor ones. However, quite nothing like that ever happened. In the contrary, Sarkozy and Merkel tried to play the nationalist card in being short-run Scrooge-blind and by blaming the others.
But how much "burden" can Germany actually take?
(Also, the various founding treaties of the currency-union explicitly forbid this).
Germany already has a lot of debt and if you add up all the debt (or more precisely the amount that needs refinancing short-term) for Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain, you end up with a very large number.
So large that I doubt people would want to buy the bonds with less than 4 or 5% interest.
At that point, we'd be back on square one, just with nobody left to bail us out.
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  #318  
Old 27.06.2012, 16:32
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Comment seen on King World News regarding European governments and Banking system...

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“If they had started doing this a year ago, I could see how they could have managed it all. As it is now, they are still talking about reducing their deficits in the year ahead. This is preposterous. This is like the French trying to decide which wine to serve as they saw the German tanks assembling on the other side of the Maginot Line. ...
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  #319  
Old 28.06.2012, 06:57
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

As far as one can tell Europe's leaders now have no other solution left but to create more (electronic) money and hope for the best.

There used to be a way out of similar dilemmas in old-world theatres. From above the stage a throne would be lowered on a rope with an actor on it representing God. Only he had the power to straighten out the imperfections of the play-writer's script. After God had corrected all the problems in the story the play then continued to a happy ending.

I'm now hoping EU's Eurokrats and/or other politicians can do something similar. Barring something of that nature we appear to be heading for a difficult future.
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  #320  
Old 29.06.2012, 12:59
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Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Dratt!
And double dratt!!
This is not what we really want, is it?

European shares rise on eurozone bank bailout deal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18641174
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