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Old 05.01.2012, 20:36
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Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

I have an ongoing issue with Axa and I am behind with payment whilst they sort it out. Despite an assurance that they would seek no further payment until it is resolved, I got a Post Office slip today to say that a Betreibungsrechnung (can't be translated accurately into English I think) is awaiting me at the Post Office.

I have emailed Axa to ask them WTF is going on and they have promised to come back to me by Monday with a solution. However, the Post Office slip says that they will only hold onto it until tomorrow.

Question is - am I best to collect it from the Post Office so I hold it, or is it OK to let the clock run out on it? If it gets returned to the Betreibungsamt, I don't know if they will issue a country wide alert and shut down my back accounts, but I also have a hazy memory that by taking it at the post office and signing for it, there is an element of acceptance of the debt

Any experience or expertise?
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Old 05.01.2012, 20:52
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

Was the assurance obtained in writing ?

Did you receive a Mahnung earlier ?

Art. 62

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/784_401/a62.html
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Old 05.01.2012, 20:57
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

This might answer your questions: http://www.betreibungsinspektorat-zh.ch/deu/bet_zah.php

The way I understand it: you don't accept the debt by picking up the Zahlungsbefehl from the post office. It contains the following infos:

- you have 20 days to pay the debt + costs for the Betreibung
- you have 10 days to explain to the Betreibungsamt why the Betreibung is illegitimate (called Rechtsvorschlag erheben)
- the threat that if you don't pay or explain yourself the Betreibung will continue
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Old 05.01.2012, 21:05
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Was the assurance obtained in writing ?

Did you receive a Mahnung earlier ?

Art. 62

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/784_401/a62.html

The written "assurance" says "you shouldn’t be punished with any penalties from our company during this solving process"
. Hardly concrete, but enough, I think? The other point is that it isn't REALLY a penalty that they are charging now, just want me to pay.

And yes, i received 2 reminders

@ Zymogen - its not clear to me when the clock starts though. From the date it was sent or from the day I collect it? To be on the safe side, I'd rather not collect it. Is there a risk with that?
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Old 05.01.2012, 21:19
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

Two copies of the Zahlungsbefehl are issued: one for the creditor and one for the debitor.

This link (http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/281_1/a72.html) says that the date of pickup is written down on both copies. I'd say that this is the time when the clock starts ticking. I can't find a link where this is explicitly stated though.

Here is a pdf about the delivery of the Zahlungsbefehl; you can't dodge it and it doesn't need the "Mahnung" to start a Betreibung.
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Old 05.01.2012, 21:21
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

I've been through this. From what I remember:

1. We had to and did pick up the notification letter by the date specified.
2. We wanted to contest, so wrote 'Rechtsvorschlag' on the letter and returned it to the Amt within ten days (note 10 calendar days - if day 10 falls on a Sunday, then you have to get there by the Friday!).

Now my understanding is different to the previous poster's at this point - it is up to the other party to provide the proof. (we were advised to wait until he last day to contest, perhaps that has something to do with it?). Or up to the other party to start proceedings (and IIRC loser pays costs).

Anyway, there is a sticky in one of the forums ("debts a d what happens when you do not pay" or something like that) and if I get time I'll try to find my notes. Btw my issue was over a rental contract and in the end was settled at the Schlichtungsbehoerde (sort of rent/housing arbitrage commitee) as it was the cheaper solution for both parties.

Good luck
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Old 05.01.2012, 21:31
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Now my understanding is different to the previous poster's at this point - it is up to the other party to provide the proof. (we were advised to wait until he last day to contest, perhaps that has something to do with it?). Or up to the other party to start proceedings (and IIRC loser pays costs).
Correct on both counts:

1) The initiator must provide some proof that there is a debt
2) The initiator must start collection proceedings if the debt is not settled after the Betreibung has been served. Small amounts (IIRC up to about CHF 600, but it may be less) are dealt with by the local "Friedensrichter", which is a type of mediation. Higher amounts are dealt with in court.

However there is one other issue here. Once the Betreibung has been served it will stay on your "Delinquent Debt Registry" (Betreibungsregister) whatever the outcome. If it turns out that AXA were wrong or you reach some amicable settlement you should not forget to ensure that AXA withdraw the Betreibung, otherwise it will remain on the registry.
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Old 05.01.2012, 22:03
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

Thanks all - good info

So two questions still outstanding....

1. What happens if I don't pick up from the Post Office?
2. If I DO pick up, then Axa tell me on Monday "Don't worry, our mistake" - do I still need to respond in ten days? (To be honest, thats what's behind the question - if I can get them to withdraw on Monday, and I haven't picked it up - it seems to save a lot of hassle)

@Snoopy - thanks for the reminder about the withdrawal from the register
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Old 05.01.2012, 22:08
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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2. If I DO pick up, then Axa tell me on Monday "Don't worry, our mistake" - do I still need to respond in ten days? (To be honest, thats what's behind the question - if I can get them to withdraw on Monday, and I haven't picked it up - it seems to save a lot of hassle)
It doesn't sound like they are going to back down to me.

What have they told you on the phone?
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Old 05.01.2012, 22:21
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Thanks all - good info

So two questions still outstanding....

1. What happens if I don't pick up from the Post Office?
The Betreibungsamt will continue to try to deliver it to you.

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Nicht so beim Zahlungsbefehl. Hier gibt es keine fingierte Zustellung. Das Betreibungsamt muss weiterhin versuchen, den Zahlungsbefehl zuzustellen. Nötigenfalls lässt das Betreibungsamt den Zahlungsbefehl durch die Polizei oder eine Gemeindebeamtin zustellen. Nur wenn alle Stricke reissen, ersetzt die Publikation des Zahlungsbefehls im Schweizerischen Handelsamtsblatt (SHAB) und im kantonalen Amtsblatt die Zustellung (Art. 66 Abs. 4 SchKG).
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Old 05.01.2012, 22:21
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Thanks all - good info

So two questions still outstanding....

1. What happens if I don't pick up from the Post Office?
2. If I DO pick up, then Axa tell me on Monday "Don't worry, our mistake" - do I still need to respond in ten days? (To be honest, thats what's behind the question - if I can get them to withdraw on Monday, and I haven't picked it up - it seems to save a lot of hassle)

@Snoopy - thanks for the reminder about the withdrawal from the register
Well one thing I can assure you of is that it will not go away once it is in the system, so ignoring it and crossing your fingers won't work.

If you are absolutely convinced that you do not owe them the money then go to the Post Office and write "Rechtsvorschlag" on it. This means that you do not recognize the debt and the onus is on the initiator to take further collection measures. Of course, you may have already reached an agreement with AXA fairly soon and the matter will be settled, except that you need to get AXA to remove the Betreibung from the system. If they were at fault then they will probably agree to do so. If it was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other then it may be more difficult.
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Old 05.01.2012, 22:25
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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It doesn't sound like they are going to back down to me.

What have they told you on the phone?
I've been passed between many offices who all said different things. The last face-to-face they said it was their mistake.

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The Betreibungsamt will continue to try to deliver it to you.
Thanks for that

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Well one thing I can assure you of is that it will not go away once it is in the system, so ignoring it and crossing your fingers won't work.

If you are absolutely convinced that you do not owe them the money then go to the Post Office and write "Rechtsvorschlag" on it. This means that you do not recognize the debt and the onus is on the initiator to take further collection measures. Of course, you may have already reached an agreement with AXA fairly soon and the matter will be settled, except that you need to get AXA to remove the Betreibung from the system. If they were at fault then they will probably agree to do so. If it was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other then it may be more difficult.
Given that they will want to keep my business (I have all my insurance with them), I assume they will withdraw it easily. Its "no skin off their nose" to withdraw it. Or am I being naive?
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Old 05.01.2012, 22:38
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Given that they will want to keep my business (I have all my insurance with them), I assume they will withdraw it easily. Its "no skin off their nose" to withdraw it. Or am I being naive?
Who knows how insurance companies tick. I found this:

"Wer den Eintrag löschen will, muss den Gläubiger darum bitten. Nur er kann die Betreibung zurückziehen und so aus dem Register entfernen lassen. Dabei ist der Wortlaut entscheidend. Schreibt die Gläubigerin lediglich, der Schuldner habe bezahlt oder die Betreibung sei erledigt, dann erscheint die bezahlte Betreibung weiterhin im Auszug. Schuldner sollten deshalb auf der Formulierung «Ich ziehe die Betreibung zurück» bestehen."

So, if you pay up they may just say that you paid but the Betreibung will stay in the register. If it was a mistake on the part of the insurer you have to get them to write that they withdraw it.
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Old 10.01.2012, 23:51
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Who knows how insurance companies tick. I found this:

"Wer den Eintrag löschen will, muss den Gläubiger darum bitten. Nur er kann die Betreibung zurückziehen und so aus dem Register entfernen lassen. Dabei ist der Wortlaut entscheidend. Schreibt die Gläubigerin lediglich, der Schuldner habe bezahlt oder die Betreibung sei erledigt, dann erscheint die bezahlte Betreibung weiterhin im Auszug. Schuldner sollten deshalb auf der Formulierung «Ich ziehe die Betreibung zurück» bestehen."

So, if you pay up they may just say that you paid but the Betreibung will stay in the register. If it was a mistake on the part of the insurer you have to get them to write that they withdraw it.
Not that any of you were having sleepness nights worrying about it, but to complete the story - I met Axa today and they accepted some liability for the issue and have agreed (upon payment of the outstanding amount by me) to cancel the record of the Betreibung and to reduce my premia for next year by the amount corresponding to the penalties above and beyond the principle amount

Thanks for all input to help me navigate this
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Old 11.01.2012, 00:25
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

You go and collect it, take a photo ID

On the certificate are details of the debt and your personal details.

You photocopy this and write on it "Rechtsvorschlag" and sign and date the copy, post the copy back to the Betreibungsamt.

The interest on the debt will now stop, and the creditor has to prove the debt is real. At some time later you will have to reply to the accusations.

On the other hand maybe AXA has agreed to pay you the money, and it is there for your collection?

Just read your last post, best to pay what you owe them into the Betreibungsamt, so there is a record of you paying up.
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Old 11.01.2012, 00:37
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Not that any of you were having sleepness nights worrying about it, but to complete the story - I met Axa today and they accepted some liability for the issue and have agreed (upon payment of the outstanding amount by me) to cancel the record of the Betreibung and to reduce my premia for next year by the amount corresponding to the penalties above and beyond the principle amount

Thanks for all input to help me navigate this
Great news. Just stay on top of it and make sure that they do get the Betreibung removed!
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Old 11.01.2012, 00:48
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

They do not HAVE to cancel the Betreibung!

Swisscom charge, I think, an extra CHF 50,-- to do so.

After the Betreibung is cancelled, most people will not be able to see the record, but a Judge can still see your debtor history records.
Which is why it is a good idea to repay any debts into the Betreibungsamt, and then the repayment is registered in your records.
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Old 11.01.2012, 01:01
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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They do not HAVE to cancel the Betreibung!

Swisscom charge, I think, an extra CHF 50,-- to do so.

After the Betreibung is cancelled, most people will not be able to see the record, but a Judge can still see your debtor history records.
Which is why it is a good idea to repay any debts into the Betreibungsamt, and then the repayment is registered in your records.
If they have agreed to do so then that is a good thing. Even if you settle a debt where you have had a Betreibung it will still be on the register (albeit with a comment saying that it has been paid). If AXA have agreed to withdraw it and have it expunged from the records that is an excellent outcome. There is no reason for someone to have an entry on the Betreibungsregister if the person collecting the debt also bears some responsibility.

If the Betreibung is cancelled it will be removed from the registry.
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Old 11.01.2012, 01:38
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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... its not clear to me when the clock starts though. From the date it was sent or from the day I collect it? To be on the safe side, I'd rather not collect it. Is there a risk with that?
Go and collect it. They sent it to you, and they have evidence, they did so. You may come up with any excuse you like, but as soon as you have the slip it is available for you at the post office it counts as "delivered" in Germany, and most likely the same in swiss law. You can consider the post their witness, it is there for you.
If you pick it up, you can contest the content as being incorrect, but if you dont, you dont even know, what they accuse you of, and they still have evidence it is legally delivered, so by not picking it up, you worsen your own position.

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Old 11.01.2012, 10:14
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Re: Betreibungsrechnung - Payment Demand

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Not that any of you were having sleepness nights worrying about it, but to complete the story - I met Axa today and they accepted some liability for the issue and have agreed (upon payment of the outstanding amount by me) to cancel the record of the Betreibung and to reduce my premia for next year by the amount corresponding to the penalties above and beyond the principle amount

Thanks for all input to help me navigate this
Excellent news! But I must know: Did you collect the letter or not?
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