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  #21  
Old 07.03.2012, 13:11
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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This is the disadvantage of UBS and CS - basically the rates are completely negotiable, depending on how good (for the bank) they think you are.

By contrast PostFinance for example has set rates and what you see on the website is what you get - it is just a matter of whether they accept you as a client or not. I'm not sure about Coop.
COOP is underpinned by Kantonal bank(s), so they will offer the same deals - that's what my hypotheke guy told me when we were setting up. It came up because he was surprised that they (COOP) had offered the better deal than BKB.

I'm asking as I might try to see if he's willing to match this on one of my tranches, so any official documentation would be good to see...
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  #22  
Old 07.03.2012, 14:03
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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japanese rates have been at or near zero for the best part of two decades. in effect, paying homeowners for the privilege of financing their home.
It's not really paid off at all, over that time 75% of the capital has been wiped out & the values are still falling. Makes you think what could happen here...........Free money is only free if the asset you buy retains it's value!
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  #23  
Old 07.03.2012, 14:41
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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so, I really don't understand finance or interest rates or the like. But if the banks are offering sub 2% for a 10 year rate, wouldn't this mean that they think the rates will stay low, or come back down after a blip up? I really need to start figuring it out. We just bought in Nov and we put it all in a 2 year at 1.4% as weren't really sure if we should go with LIBOR and it is short enough that hopefully by 2013 we will know what is going on. And that the rates won't shoot up then!
About "wouldn't this mean that they think the rates will stay low, or come back down after a blip up"

Possibly. It could also mean that they have the possibility to borrow the money for your mortgage for a fixed 10 year term also at a fixed rate that still gives them a profit.
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Old 07.03.2012, 14:49
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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It's not really paid off at all, over that time 75% of the capital has been wiped out & the values are still falling. Makes you think what could happen here...........Free money is only free if the asset you buy retains it's value!
it's also free if you die before they can collect payment
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Old 07.03.2012, 15:03
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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it's also free if you die before they can collect payment
Except you could probably buy the house today without a mortgage......
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  #26  
Old 07.03.2012, 15:19
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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Except you could probably buy the house today without a mortgage......
price of a house doesn't matter when you're dead.
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  #27  
Old 07.03.2012, 16:13
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

Interesting… we are just starting to ask about mortgage offers and figure out how to split up the loan. I hadn't realized you cannot pay back whenever you want necessarily… this will be important to keep in mind when setting up!

I was offered 1.66% fixed 10 year this week, a bit more if we want to secure that rate for 12 months from now. I'm interested in knowing more about libor, but it seems lots of banks are starting to push the fixed mortgages now. One told us they don't offer libor for mortgages under 1million CHF!
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  #28  
Old 07.03.2012, 16:17
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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It's not really paid off at all, over that time 75% of the capital has been wiped out & the values are still falling. Makes you think what could happen here...........Free money is only free if the asset you buy retains it's value!
Indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...t_price_bubble

"By 2004, prime "A" property in Tokyo's financial districts had slumped to less than 1 percent of its peak, and Tokyo's residential homes were less than a tenth of their peak"

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  #29  
Old 07.03.2012, 16:17
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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One told us they don't offer libor for mortgages under 1million CHF!
yeah, i'd avoid that bank.
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  #30  
Old 07.03.2012, 16:20
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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Indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...t_price_bubble

"By 2004, prime "A" property in Tokyo's financial districts had slumped to less than 1 percent of its peak, and Tokyo's residential homes were less than a tenth of their peak"

yup. again shows the danger and distorting effects of low interest rates.

it happened in japan, in the US, in the UK, in Ireland, in Spain etc. etc.

and yet it is still happening in other countries including Switzerland.

what is funny is the same arguments used to justify the bubble in each case...
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  #31  
Old 07.03.2012, 16:38
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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Interesting… we are just starting to ask about mortgage offers and figure out how to split up the loan. I hadn't realized you cannot pay back whenever you want necessarily… this will be important to keep in mind when setting up!

I was offered 1.66% fixed 10 year this week, a bit more if we want to secure that rate for 12 months from now. I'm interested in knowing more about libor, but it seems lots of banks are starting to push the fixed mortgages now. One told us they don't offer libor for mortgages under 1million CHF!
That is by far the cheapest I've heard of - would you mind telling which bank? I would snatch their arm off...
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  #32  
Old 08.03.2012, 00:57
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

So it's true: apparently banks (in this case, our bank) are pushing hard trying to convince us to move our 3-months LIBOR into a 10 years fixed.

Arguments: they foresee a sudden increase in the following months, and as history proves rates can go up very fast, in a matter of days.

Now, while it is true that I don't want to be caught in the middle of my 3-months LIBOR with this sudden increase and be forced to fix at 3%, I'm also wondering who's good are this bank's suggestions (and I have a feeling it's not me ).

At the end, I don't think the gain is worth the risk. With my usual 2-scenario simulation (you're used to it now aren't you? ) and some approximations, we have

capital: 1 mil CHF

Scenario 1: LIBOR + sudden increase
2 years LIBOR at 0.5% = 10k CHF
8 years fixed at 3% = 240k CHF
TOTAL: 250k CHF

Scenario 2: 10 years fixed
10 years fixed at 2% = 200k CHF
TOTAL: 200k CHF

Playing with numbers shows that you reach parity with 4 years LIBOR at 0.5%, and start earning only if the LIBOR part goes beyond 4 years. To be honest, this never happened in 100 years in Switzerland. Even if it will, in the worst case scenario the difference is not that much (1k or 2k per year).

I think I'll go all in with the 10 years fixed.
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  #33  
Old 08.03.2012, 01:20
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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So it's true: apparently banks (in this case, our bank) are pushing hard trying to convince us to move our 3-months LIBOR into a 10 years fixed.

Arguments: they foresee a sudden increase in the following months, and as history proves rates can go up very fast, in a matter of days.
did they tell you why they see that sudden increase?
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  #34  
Old 08.03.2012, 11:41
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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Interesting… we are just starting to ask about mortgage offers and figure out how to split up the loan. I hadn't realized you cannot pay back whenever you want necessarily… this will be important to keep in mind when setting up!

I was offered 1.66% fixed 10 year this week, a bit more if we want to secure that rate for 12 months from now. I'm interested in knowing more about libor, but it seems lots of banks are starting to push the fixed mortgages now. One told us they don't offer libor for mortgages under 1million CHF!
We discussed this in your other thread. It's the penalty thing that was were talking about.



(sorry, i miss read and have edited my comment out.)
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  #35  
Old 08.03.2012, 15:03
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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We discussed this in your other thread. It's the penalty thing that was were talking about.
Ah, you edited your comment… yeah, I got what you meant in my other thread about selling early and penalties. I just thought this means you can't pay back a portion of the loan whenever you want… which I find interesting if that's the case.

For instance… you have a loan for 1 million and you have it split into a standard 2 mortgages, let's say both fixed at 10 years at 2% like the example above… and you are only amortizing one of the mortgages.

Scenario:
Mortgage 500k at 2%= 10k
Mortgage 500k at 2% with amortization (1%)= 15k

So here you are paying about 2083CHF per month on the loan. You cannot just increase your payments to 3k per month if you want to pay down more on the loan and decrease your interest payments?

I find this so interesting… I'm used to the idea that you just start paying more into a loan when you want/can. The idea that there are limitations on when you can pay into it is new to me. I've got a lot more to learn about mortgages!

I guess this would mean that if you are planning to save up a certain amount to pay into the loan, say you want to stick 200k in it after 5 years… you would set up a portion of your mortgage at a 5 year fixed rate with the idea that you'll pay off that part by that time? (But if you can't pay it… you could renegotiate that portion of the mortgage then…?)
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  #36  
Old 08.03.2012, 15:23
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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Ah, you edited your comment… yeah, I got what you meant in my other thread about selling early and penalties. I just thought this means you can't pay back a portion of the loan whenever you want… which I find interesting if that's the case.

For instance… you have a loan for 1 million and you have it split into a standard 2 mortgages, let's say both fixed at 10 years at 2% like the example above… and you are only amortizing one of the mortgages.

Scenario:
Mortgage 500k at 2%= 10k
Mortgage 500k at 2% with amortization (1%)= 15k

So here you are paying about 2083CHF per month on the loan. You cannot just increase your payments to 3k per month if you want to pay down more on the loan and decrease your interest payments?

I find this so interesting… I'm used to the idea that you just start paying more into a loan when you want/can. The idea that there are limitations on when you can pay into it is new to me. I've got a lot more to learn about mortgages!

I guess this would mean that if you are planning to save up a certain amount to pay into the loan, say you want to stick 200k in it after 5 years… you would set up a portion of your mortgage at a 5 year fixed rate with the idea that you'll pay off that part by that time? (But if you can't pay it… you could renegotiate that portion of the mortgage then…?)
it depends on the mortgage product you choose. i went specifically with a bank that offered a LIBOR mortgage which allowed unlimited repayments at any renewal point (every 3 months). a cantonal bank i went to had no flexibility at all with the LIBOR mortgage.
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  #37  
Old 08.03.2012, 15:40
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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Interesting… we are just starting to ask about mortgage offers and figure out how to split up the loan. I hadn't realized you cannot pay back whenever you want necessarily… this will be important to keep in mind when setting up!

I was offered 1.66% fixed 10 year this week, a bit more if we want to secure that rate for 12 months from now. I'm interested in knowing more about libor, but it seems lots of banks are starting to push the fixed mortgages now. One told us they don't offer libor for mortgages under 1million CHF!
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Ah, you edited your comment… yeah, I got what you meant in my other thread about selling early and penalties. I just thought this means you can't pay back a portion of the loan whenever you want… which I find interesting if that's the case.

For instance… you have a loan for 1 million and you have it split into a standard 2 mortgages, let's say both fixed at 10 years at 2% like the example above… and you are only amortizing one of the mortgages.

Scenario:
Mortgage 500k at 2%= 10k
Mortgage 500k at 2% with amortization (1%)= 15k

So here you are paying about 2083CHF per month on the loan. You cannot just increase your payments to 3k per month if you want to pay down more on the loan and decrease your interest payments?

I find this so interesting… I'm used to the idea that you just start paying more into a loan when you want/can. The idea that there are limitations on when you can pay into it is new to me. I've got a lot more to learn about mortgages!

I guess this would mean that if you are planning to save up a certain amount to pay into the loan, say you want to stick 200k in it after 5 years… you would set up a portion of your mortgage at a 5 year fixed rate with the idea that you'll pay off that part by that time? (But if you can't pay it… you could renegotiate that portion of the mortgage then…?)
I edited only because then I went on to talk about your loan offer which I misread for a 1 year loan when you wrote 10 year loan.

You can amortize more of your house. But it's done in a different way. Instead of paying more per month to the bank you put it away in your own account. Then when the amortization payment is due you can pay more than the 1% required. 1% is the minimum required (usually). It's really a different system and I'd re-think wanting to amortize more of the house for the next 10 years. Put the money away and when the 10 years are over, you can see what the rates are and if you want to pay down more.

Either way, you'll still have to pay the full amount of interested on that 10 year loan.

Anyway, at 1.66% I'd take that 10 year loan without hesitation. If you want to see, you'll easily get the purchaser to take that loan from you when you are ready to sell and the penalty we talked about won't really relevant. (And at that rate, at the price you were talking in the last thread i'm not sure it will be that high anyway).

You'll need to read up on direct & indirect amortization. It wouldn't be a bad idea to pay someone to discuss the system with you. We did and it was really worth it. We'll probably call on him again now that we need to re-negotiate the 5 year part of our loan.
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  #38  
Old 08.03.2012, 15:58
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

Hmm…. Yes, thanks for clarifying. It is really helpful to know more about how to save and work with the mortgages here. We were wondering because maybe in 5 years my husband would go back to school and we were trying to see if we could set something up to try and put more money into the house then to reduce the loan repayments. (Not that I can't handle the payments on my own now… but just to "help" further if it makes sense…)

But do I understand correctly (with some banks… or all) if you agree to have a loan of 500k for example… and the interest is 2% for 10 years, or 100k over 10 years… you will have to pay all of that 100k in interest no matter if you put more money into the house in the 10 year period?

And yeah, either way… below 2% is great and should be waaaay better than what we pay in rent now.

We are going to go with VermögensZentrum to go over mortgage plans and work out what kind of system will work for us. DH already got a book from them in German about hypothek that he's reading up on now so he can catch up to me. (Was hilarious with the first VZ meeting all in German and I already had told him everything they told us about the basics!) In the mean time I'm keeping my eyes on threads like this.
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  #39  
Old 08.03.2012, 16:12
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

Yes, mortgages here aren't structured like the standard ones are in the US where you pay them off over 15 - 30 years. Here, it is quite common that you never pay off the interest only part of your mortgage.


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But do I understand correctly (with some banks… or all) if you agree to have a loan of 500k for example… and the interest is 2% for 10 years, or 100k over 10 years… you will have to pay all of that 100k in interest no matter if you put more money into the house in the 10 year period?
I am not sure if I understand this question - you will pay the interest on the loan as you go along. Then the way you amortize (is that the word?) can be direct or indirect. We have an indirect amortization so we pay into a 3rd pillar account in my husband's name at our bank with the loan. The bank is happy that the money is in an account there, and at the end of or mortgage (which currently is 2 years) we will pay off the amount we need to pay off for those 2 years (I think either from that account or elsewhere if we can). At that point, when we re-do the mortgage for the next go-round, we are free to pay it down as much as we want. So if 450k was left at the end of the 2 years, if we wanted to pay down 50 k, we could do so and then just take out the next loan at 400k, at least that is how I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong!

And yes, where is this 1.66% for 10 years?
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Old 08.03.2012, 16:37
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Re: CHF LIBOR slowly creeping up, but fixed interests going down

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Yes, mortgages here aren't structured like the standard ones are in the US where you pay them off over 15 - 30 years. Here, it is quite common that you never pay off the interest only part of your mortgage.

I am not sure if I understand this question - you will pay the interest on the loan as you go along. Then the way you amortize (is that the word?) can be direct or indirect. We have an indirect amortization so we pay into a 3rd pillar account in my husband's name at our bank with the loan. The bank is happy that the money is in an account there, and at the end of or mortgage (which currently is 2 years) we will pay off the amount we need to pay off for those 2 years (I think either from that account or elsewhere if we can). At that point, when we re-do the mortgage for the next go-round, we are free to pay it down as much as we want. So if 450k was left at the end of the 2 years, if we wanted to pay down 50 k, we could do so and then just take out the next loan at 400k, at least that is how I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong!

And yes, where is this 1.66% for 10 years?
Yes, I've gotten my head round the whole "don't pay the whole thing off" mentality. My question is more about reducing the mortgage payments, not about paying it off entirely. (indirect/direct amortisation I guess!)

Say you have a 10 year mortgage and your payments are 1500 a month, but 5 years in you have enough savings you would like to put in money to reduce your mortgage payment to 1000 a month. It would not be possible unless you set up an appropriate expiration for a partition of your mortgage, or like previous posters have said about having a libor setup where they can pay into the loan every 3 months when they want or similar.

If I'm paying into a 3a system I would actually prefer that be more for my retirement and not solely for a house. (But I've got to watch what 3a payments do to my bloody US taxes!) And in any case I guess higher mortgage payments affect how much tax I'm paying and vice versa. So much to think about!

The cheap mortgage offers are around… but it maybe be difficult if you are already committed to one bank and cannot switch.

Sorry for threadjacking. You're all so helpful!
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