Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 29.03.2012, 11:38
17clarence's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Geneva
Posts: 767
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 965 Times in 440 Posts
17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

The Daily Telegraph in the UK does the same, as do all the offshore financial websites.
I suppose backhanders and advertising revenue are all that count.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 17clarence for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 29.03.2012, 11:41
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,503
Groaned at 92 Times in 85 Posts
Thanked 3,086 Times in 1,248 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

thanks very much for your detailed response
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 29.03.2012, 11:58
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Richterswil
Posts: 541
Groaned at 11 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 378 Times in 169 Posts
Breezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputation
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Just to clear this up: did investors lose all their money, i.e. fraud, or did they underperform the markets over a time frame of more than five years. Fees are a part of life and you wont escape them if you use the big two in Switzerland or invest in any fund anywhere in the world either. There is no free lunch, apart from diversification and convexity, but that is another story. I want to clear up the nature of these objections as there is quite a big difference between fraud and fees.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Breezy for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 441
Groaned at 62 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 1,174 Times in 666 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
the company folded and seems to have reappeared with all the same staff, and everyone lost there money
Quote:
View Post
Just to clear this up: did investors lose all their money, i.e. fraud...
To clarify, if you explore the discussion in the Offshorealert link in post 16, it indicates that a company called [B...] rebranded as "Ve neer", taking many staff with it, after involvement in a case where clients lost money (SFO link about Imperial Consolidated fraud case). (More info on B... and V... and IC can be found on the Offshorealert site (e.g.). The Independent also has some reports about IC.) Veneer is still very much in business.
It's not clear whether company [A...] in the first post is a separate company in the offshore advice industry or a rebranded version of Veneer after all the bad press about V, but A... has taken on quite a few of V's staff, which is surprising when it seems keen to stress its professionalism.

Last edited by Reb77Br; 29.03.2012 at 12:26.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:31
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Richterswil
Posts: 541
Groaned at 11 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 378 Times in 169 Posts
Breezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputation
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
To clarify, if you explore the discussion in the Offshorealert link in post 16, it indicates that a company called [B...] rebranded as "Ve neer", taking many staff with it, after involvement in a case where clients lost money (SFO link about Imperial Consolidated fraud case). (More info on B... and V... and IC can be found on the Offshorealert site (e.g.). The Independent also has some reports about IC.) Veneer is still very much in business.
It's not clear whether company [A...] in the first post is a separate company in the offshore advice industry or a rebranded version of Veneer after all the bad press about V, but A... has taken on quite a few of V's staff, which is surprising when it seems keen to stress its professionalism.
Your link didnt work for me. Would you mind answering my question directly for the benefit of the forum as fees never help performance, but I accept them as the cost of the advice/product set up and management and even the employment of a qualified workforce. These are not expected to be free. Performance is something separate. Fraud is not acceptable.

The question: did investors lose all their money, i.e. fraud, or did they underperform the markets over a time frame of more than five years?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:31
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
Hey, let's not waste time.
You need a 25 year offshore life assurance product (fully portable) with Generali, and transfer your pension to Malta.

Can I have my commission now please?
Tut tut tut. How can I believe you if you don't use words such as "tax efficient wrapper" and some really impressive but meaningless doodles on fancy notepaper?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:37
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
Applying the usual "name no names" rule to protect the innocent:

A company which offers financial advice to expats and which recently opened an office in Zurich, now has a sponsored article in The Local.

The company's country manager for Switzerland says that he's been working as a wealth manager for an unnamed entity in Zurich since 2010. According to this, he's been working at "Venere".

There are others from this company who used to work at Vineer (e.g. one, two, three and this guy whose profile used to say that he worked for the beers in Munich).

The company nevertheless professes high professional standards, as does The Local:

Uh oh.

Not too long ago the mods were telling us, sorry but we have no choice but must delete all posts that have veneer or late Prime Ministers because some mean lawyers are bullying us and we're just the poor suffering underdog.

Now The Local is accepting advertising contracts from these same mean bullies.

Which lies are we supposed to believe?

This stinks and it stinks badly.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 29.03.2012, 13:03
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 441
Groaned at 62 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 1,174 Times in 666 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
Your link didnt work for me....The question: did investors lose all their money, i.e. fraud, or did they underperform the markets over a time frame of more than five years?
The Serious Fraud Office link is working now:
Quote:
The scheme involved sophisticated sales techniques, in less demanding regulatory environments, which induced money from investors on the basis that the UK limbs of the business were extremely profitable and worth investing in. Money was to come in from overseas investors, be applied to commercial lending in the UK and then to be paid back to investors with interest. Investors were attracted to the schemes by the promise of high rates of return and the assurance that their capital was protected. Imperial's glossy and professional brochures advertised the fact that investors' funds had the benefit of "total asset protection".
In fact, quite the opposite was true.
http://www.sfo.gov.uk/our-work/our-c...solidated.aspx
Quote:
Many investors have lost all or much of their life savings in the schemes.
Imperial Consolidated: Five are charged, more expected to follow
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 29.03.2012, 13:59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 441
Groaned at 62 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 1,174 Times in 666 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
The Daily Telegraph in the UK does the same, as do all the offshore financial websites.
At least one offshore financial site is owned by V'neer: presumably this, which seems to be a way of channelling expats to financial advisors, and does not say who is behind it but has a contact number in Spain. Asecond site is (or was) partnered with them. This third site also seems to be way of channelling expats to financial advisers and could mislead visitors into thinking it has something to do with the consumer magazine Which?, which has a similar looking page. (That third offshore site is also registered at an address shared with a company with a Veery similar name, though that could just be coincidence.)

Last edited by Reb77Br; 29.03.2012 at 14:23.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Reb77Br for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 29.03.2012, 14:45
17clarence's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Geneva
Posts: 767
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 965 Times in 440 Posts
17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
Would you mind answering my question directly for the benefit of the forum as fees never help performance, but I accept them as the cost of the advice/product set up and management and even the employment of a qualified workforce. These are not expected to be free.
Certainly with the outfits we are talking about is the excessive fees and lack of clarity.
They push "you pay us no money directly" however the commissions are far higher than comparable products.
Also the Terms and Condidtions are usually not supplied until after gullible people have signed up.
A particular cost not explained is the cost of terminating a fixed term term savings plan. The company deduct the fees they would have received had you ran the policy the full term.
ie, you sign for a 20 year policy, the first 14-15 months payments goes directly to cover fees and commission, only after 15 months do your funds start to be invested, then if you cancel after 7 years (the average life span of these policies so it appears) they will deduct the projected missing 13 years worth of yearly admin charges. In effect you won't even get back the money you paid in.

All these posts are doing is alerting mug punters not to take for granted what is being told/sold to them.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 17clarence for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 29.03.2012, 15:13
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 588
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 236 Times in 146 Posts
c123 has earned some respectc123 has earned some respect
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

This mug punter appreciates the effort.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank c123 for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 29.03.2012, 18:14
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
The question: did investors lose all their money, i.e. fraud, or did they underperform the markets over a time frame of more than five years?
Almost every managed fund underperforms the market over 5 or more years due to their charges. I never know why the charge 1.5% a year and have a portfolio that 90% follows the index they aim to beat.

Generally 90%+ managed funds will underperform by 2-3% a year over time, except for tracker funds which have lower charges as they dont have to pay a fund manager-
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 29.03.2012, 21:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Richterswil
Posts: 541
Groaned at 11 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 378 Times in 169 Posts
Breezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputation
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
The Serious Fraud Office link is working now:

I appreciate the response but am none the wiser. The Serious Fraud Office contain no links to the companies in question. Unless I missed something. Did I?

Quote:
View Post
Certainly with the outfits we are talking about is the excessive fees and lack of clarity.
They push "you pay us no money directly" however the commissions are far higher than comparable products.
Also the Terms and Condidtions are usually not supplied until after gullible people have signed up.
A particular cost not explained is the cost of terminating a fixed term term savings plan. The company deduct the fees they would have received had you ran the policy the full term.
ie, you sign for a 20 year policy, the first 14-15 months payments goes directly to cover fees and commission, only after 15 months do your funds start to be invested, then if you cancel after 7 years (the average life span of these policies so it appears) they will deduct the projected missing 13 years worth of yearly admin charges. In effect you won't even get back the money you paid in.

All these posts are doing is alerting mug punters not to take for granted what is being told/sold to them.
If you invest for a 20 year policy, then cancelling after 7 years will inevitably incur back end load fees. It is the same with most mutual funds and any other type of investment vehicles. The projected deduction sounds unfair, although I wonder whether any of that relates to fair dealing for the remaining investors when you pull out. I dont know and it would be interesting to hear what they told you.

As far as I see it, you are charged double fees. One fee to the adviser of 1 or 2 percent, which comes out of the performance in future NAVs and then the same amount to the provider of the fund or structured product they put you in. Of course you would get hit hard. Trying to scale 4 percent to get a return is some hurdle rate. Personally I wouldnt invest in this manner, however, for those that dont know any better, there is nothing wrong with going to an adviser. Though a good adviser is key. And therein lies the rub. This is a matter of ethics for me. The adviser needs to be upfront about the fees. It also should be a discussion where the client should not be afraid to ask questions. From the example above, if you invest in a 20 year policy and cannot commit to that, then that is a bad joint decision between the client and the adviser as it is a long time frame and ending the policy after 7 years means it was not the right investment in the first place.

Notwithstanding this, they could be dodgy. Im just looking for better evidence of it. Id like to hear more about the misselling and serious overcharging / underperformance when fully invested over the lifetime of the product.

Incidentally, would it be reasonable for an investment adviser to charge a flat 1 to 2 percent flat fee to invest directly in a mixture of ETFs or stocks, which then do not incur the extra layer of fees that the fund provider charges? You would then get a tailored portfolio to your needs but are clearly paying for the advice rather than the product. You could of course do all this yourself e.g. select and invest into the ETFs directly. Just wondering why you use the services in the first place and whether it is the model that is broken.

Last edited by Breezy; 29.03.2012 at 21:38. Reason: Added quotes in
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 29.03.2012, 21:40
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,625
Groaned at 580 Times in 488 Posts
Thanked 20,915 Times in 10,988 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
Just to clear this up: did investors lose all their money, i.e. fraud, or did they underperform the markets over a time frame of more than five years. Fees are a part of life and you wont escape them if you use the big two in Switzerland or invest in any fund anywhere in the world either. There is no free lunch, apart from diversification and convexity, but that is another story. I want to clear up the nature of these objections as there is quite a big difference between fraud and fees.
About "there is quite a big difference between fraud and fees"

Depends on the percentage. If your first 5 years premiums disappear because of fees or disappear because of fraud then what is the big difference?
The only difference I see is you should know the amount of the fees in advance
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 29.03.2012, 21:52
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post

Incidentally, would it be reasonable for an investment adviser to charge a flat 1 to 2 percent flat fee to invest directly in a mixture of ETFs or stocks, which then do not incur the extra layer of fees that the fund provider charges? You would then get a tailored portfolio to your needs but are clearly paying for the advice rather than the product. You could of course do all this yourself e.g. select and invest into the ETFs directly. Just wondering why you use the services in the first place and whether it is the model that is broken.
I suspect the advisor will get a proportion of transaction fees, the purchase costs will not be $7.99 on a trade of $1,000,000. It would be with Schwab, or $9.95 with TDAmmeritrade. BE WARNED even if you pay a fee , 1-2% is HUGE!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 29.03.2012, 22:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Richterswil
Posts: 541
Groaned at 11 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 378 Times in 169 Posts
Breezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputation
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
About "there is quite a big difference between fraud and fees"

Depends on the percentage. If your first 5 years premiums disappear because of fees or disappear because of fraud then what is the big difference?
The only difference I see is you should know the amount of the fees in advance
Stealing money and charging high fees are two very different things. I am sure the FSA / the SEC or FINMA have some fairly concise definition about this.

Quote:
View Post
I suspect the advisor will get a proportion of transaction fees, the purchase costs will not be $7.99 on a trade of $1,000,000. It would be with Schwab, or $9.95 with TDAmmeritrade. BE WARNED even if you pay a fee , 1-2% is HUGE!
What is a reasonable fee for advice?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 29.03.2012, 22:56
17clarence's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Geneva
Posts: 767
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 965 Times in 440 Posts
17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
there is nothing wrong with going to an adviser.
These guys do a 5 day course in Malta, a training course that is for sales.
Take a look at post 154 here

If anyone has ever bought one of these Generali or Skandia bonds and made money on it, speak up now please.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 17clarence for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 29.03.2012, 22:59
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
Stealing money and charging high fees are two very different things. I am sure the FSA / the SEC or FINMA have some fairly concise definition about this.



What is a reasonable fee for advice?
Pay an hourly rate.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 29.03.2012, 23:12
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,625
Groaned at 580 Times in 488 Posts
Thanked 20,915 Times in 10,988 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
Stealing money and charging high fees are two very different things. I am sure the FSA / the SEC or FINMA have some fairly concise definition about this.



What is a reasonable fee for advice?
About " I am sure the FSA / the SEC or FINMA have some fairly concise definition about this."

& you have a link to these definitions?

Probably not relevant anyway as the so called & self styled "independent financial advisors" who prey on expats here do not have authorisation from or subscribe to reputable financial governance organisations
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 29.03.2012, 23:14
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Richterswil
Posts: 541
Groaned at 11 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 378 Times in 169 Posts
Breezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputation
Re: The Local and financial advice for expats

Quote:
View Post
These guys do a 5 day course in Malta, a training course that is for sales.
Take a look at post 154 here

If anyone has ever bought one of these Generali or Skandia bonds and made money on it, speak up now please.

Granted I would want my adviser to be well qualified in finance, though all major banks and investment organisations are staffed with sales people who arent much different. Sales is often just that, unfortunately.


Quote:
View Post
Pay an hourly rate.
What is a reasonable hourly rate?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
financial advice, financial advisers, financial advisors, investment fund, wealth management




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Financial Mis-selling to expats 17clarence Finance/banking/taxation 208 29.09.2016 13:10
Towns between Kusnacht and Mannedorf - any tips / local advice? kev132 Housing in general 9 01.06.2011 15:06
Financial Advice for Expats Floris Commercial 2 13.09.2010 17:14
Sending kids to local schools and speaking the local language Mobeen Family matters/health 8 31.01.2010 23:20
Independent Financial Advice for Expats Floris Commercial 0 16.10.2008 12:41


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0