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  #41  
Old 30.04.2012, 15:25
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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Where in US law is it illegal to hold a foreign passport under a different name? The US has never seen my other passport and there are no international agreements to even enforce this (I can decide to change my name in my foreign passport via legal avenues tomorrow and keep my US name in my US passport; no laws that prohibit this). In the world of non-EU 3rd world countries, DOBs can be "officially changed" in foreign birth certificates and foreign passports. Where does US law prohibit that?
The US only recognizes your US citizenship and not your other citizenships. Therefore, there is no law in the US that rules on what identity you hold in another country.

However, rest assured, your aliases are shared via Interpol.
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  #42  
Old 30.04.2012, 15:30
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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In essence, the foreign entities (ie. swiss banks) will be triggered by US indica, as follows:

(2) U.S. place of birth;
Okay, but if it were a Swiss-born, who lived in the US for 10 years, becoming a citizen during this time, and has now returned to Switzerland, couldn't they 'theoretically' open an account here and not mention their ties to the US?
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  #43  
Old 30.04.2012, 16:12
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

Let's test this US Indica shall we?

(1) I would show my foreign passport, fail
(2) I was not born in the USA, fail
(3) I have never disclosed my US residence address to any bank in Switzerland (the day I opened my first account in CH, I already had a CH address), fail
(4) I have never disclosed a US telephone number to any Swiss Bank, nor have I ever called one from one, fail
(5) I do not wire money to the US, I have my own investment funds that generate returns to settle the meager bills I have in the US as I don't live there, fail
(6) No power of attorney, fail
(7) No such address, fail

If John Smith on a US Passport flies Geneva-Moscow-Washington DC, nobody would know anything about Abdullah Aziz since the foreign passport would not be shown.
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  #44  
Old 30.04.2012, 17:55
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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This is a Swiss inheritance, given to a Swiss-born and the US should have no right to any taxes on this money.
A foreign inheritance is not subject to U.S. estate tax unless the person leaving the inheritance is a citizen or resident of the United States or the inheritance includes property located in or issued in the United States

My Swiss grandmother died a few years ago and left a seven figure estate to her 6 children. I'm unfamiliar with the Swiss inheritance/estate laws and not sure how it was divided and taxed in Switzerland. However, when all was said and done, my mother(Swiss-born, US citizen and resident) received a six figure inheritance wired directly to her bank account in the states. She filled out Form 3520: Annual Return To Report Transactions With Foreign Trusts and Receipt of Certain Foreign Gifts (because amount was greater than $100K) and that was that. No taxes, no problems.
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  #45  
Old 30.04.2012, 18:08
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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A foreign inheritance is not subject to U.S. estate tax unless the person leaving the inheritance is a citizen or resident of the United States or the inheritance includes property located in or issued in the United States

My Swiss grandmother died a few years ago and left a seven figure estate to her 6 children. I'm unfamiliar with the Swiss inheritance/estate laws and not sure how it was divided and taxed in Switzerland. However, when all was said and done, my mother(Swiss-born, US citizen and resident) received a six figure inheritance wired directly to her bank account in the states. She filled out Form 3520: Annual Return To Report Transactions With Foreign Trusts and Receipt of Certain Foreign Gifts (because amount was greater than $100K) and that was that. No taxes, no problems.
But if she lived here in Switzerland, she would need to include it on her FBAR each year and report the earnings on her US tax return.
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  #46  
Old 30.04.2012, 18:21
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

I'm wondering if some of you read the first few pages of this thread.
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  #47  
Old 30.04.2012, 18:45
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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But if she lived here in Switzerland, she would need to include it on her FBAR each year and report the earnings on her US tax return.
Your right, she would have to report it if you lived in Switzerland.

The interest, dividends, cap gains generated from the inheritance proceeds are taxed regardless of where she is domiciled. As we all know, the IRS is interested in the worldwide income of US citizens. Since you've been fulfilling your requirement to report your worldwide income(by filing taxes), why take the chance?

One other thing that I would think about is inheritance implications. As I said before, I'm no expert on Swiss inheritance laws, but I do know that the US takes the position that the entire worldwide estate of US citizens is subject to estate taxes and has treaties with Switzerland as such.

So lets say you have these two accounts (one 'visible' to the US, other 'invisible'). Years go by and you and/or your spouse pass away. What will be the ramification for you heirs?
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  #48  
Old 30.04.2012, 20:21
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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So lets say you have these two accounts (one 'visible' to the US, other 'invisible'). Years go by and you and/or your spouse pass away. What will be the ramification for you heirs?
Nothing new & it's the reason Swiss numbered accounts have flourished for generations. The account never needs to change as power of Atorney can continue after death........
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  #49  
Old 01.05.2012, 18:08
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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If John Smith on a US Passport flies Geneva-Moscow-Washington DC, nobody would know anything about Abdullah Aziz since the foreign passport would not be shown.
Well the Swiss would know for starters. "How long have you been here?" - and that's the moment where you pull out your residence permit in your foreign new name with an adjusted DOB probably...
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Old 04.05.2012, 18:45
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

Some comments, from experience, on various postings to this thread. FWIW.

"Yes but if you omit US citizenship when opening a Swiss account, how would the US government find out or how would a Swiss bank even know? My name in my US passport could be John Smith and my name on my other passport could be Abdullah Aziz. Technically, and legally speaking, I can be two different entities."

Some countries forbid changes of name; Anglo-Saxon countries tend to make such changes easy. Therefore many dual nationals have different names in their two passports. Some may have different genders: before the European Court of Human Rights addressed the issue that was a problem with some European countries.

For those with a Swiss passport, the Swiss do not record place of birth but rather commune of origin. A number of Swiss citizens whom the IRS deems US persons are living their lives without regard to the USA, have no assets, income or heirs in the US (or in Canada, which has a mutual tax collection agreement with the US) and will never travel there. It will, as a practical matter, be difficult for the US to enforce FATCA as against those who, despite once having lived in the US have no present right to do so. Or who deny their US status. Or who lost that status before 1980 and never availed themselves of an attribute of US citizenship thereafter. See Rev. Rul. 75-357, PLR 8138071 http://www.charitableplanning.com/to....php?id=678652

Unlike Switzerland, the United States does not know who all its citizens are. A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen who has resided in the US for the requisite period at the specified ages will be a U.S. citizen for life or until expatriation whether or not the birth is registered; that is not the case of a Swiss born abroad, who in most cases (if a dual national living abroad) must have the birth registered and by age 22 make a request for retention of nationality or lose Swiss citizenship.

FFI's are required to conduct due diligence to determine who are US persons. But often that will be impossible, and the Swiss Government is unlikely to assist in cases where they deem the person or entity to be Swiss. Often the IRS relies on the transmission of assets through inheritance to US persons to enforce its claims to income and transfer taxes. Where there are no US assets and no US heirs the issue goes away. The ECHR has ruled in a case involving Switzerland that whereas tax may be collected in such cases, penalties may not. Go to http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/se...?skin=hudoc-en and search for "resolution number" 75/1996/694/886 and 75/1996/694/886 respectively.

"A foreign inheritance is not subject to U.S. estate tax unless the person leaving the inheritance is a citizen or resident of the United States or the inheritance includes property located in or issued in the United States"

This is true as to estate tax. A true inheritance tax may be levied on the recipient (not the case in the UK because IHT there is really an estate duty). See for example IRS Technical Assistance Memorandum 9413005 discussing German taxation of a US inheritance by trust: http://www.legalbitstream.com/irs_materials.asp (search for "9413005")

"The representative said that most all other Swiss banks are also blocking accounts for US citizens regardless of having a residence permit. The exception seems to be PostFinance with the Swiss Post."

PostFinance may be relying on sovereign immunity to protect itself. That and the absence of US assets beyond whatever correspondence banking it conducts.

"One other thing that I would think about is inheritance implications. As I said before, I'm no expert on Swiss inheritance laws, but I do know that the US takes the position that the entire worldwide estate of US citizens is subject to estate taxes and has treaties with Switzerland as such."

The US-Switzerland Estate Tax Treaty is here: http://www.eda.admin.ch/etc/medialib...mp/tax1951.pdf For dual nationals it mainly addresses relief for double taxation, but that may not help with respect to estate taxation by certain states.

"So lets say you have these two accounts (one 'visible' to the US, other 'invisible'). Years go by and you and/or your spouse pass away. What will be the ramification for you[r] heirs?"

Discussed above. If the amount is relatively small it will be paid over in cash. If the amount is large, clever succession planners may have developed a cascade of foreign trusts and entities that enable the US heirs to collect funds only as wages for work performed. I am aware of one such construction that survived an English bankruptcy proceeding and attack for tax fraud. Although I have looked for it, I have not found a case where acceptance of an employment relationship and resulting wages could make the employee liable under a theory of "transferee liability" (a tax concept) or "fraudulent transfer" (fraud upon creditors).

"I maintained my residence in Fairfax County, Virginia, which was no easy task"

I'm surprised it wasn't easy. Because Virginia, and Virginia counties, are aggressive in seeking payment of income and property tax (on automobiles, for example) even from persons who left Virginia many years ago without intent to return. And as to voting, you should at least have been able to get a "federal ballot" without argument.
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  #51  
Old 04.05.2012, 22:16
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen who has resided in the US for the requisite period at the specified ages will be a U.S. citizen for life or until expatriation whether or not the birth is registered; that is not the case of a Swiss born abroad, who in most cases (if a dual national living abroad) must have the birth registered and by age 22 make a request for retention of nationality or lose Swiss citizenship.
Not true. Birth to a US citizen abroad does not automatically confer citizenship to the child even if the parent's residency requirement(s) were met. Citizenship must be claimed by registering the birth at the nearest US diplomatic mission so as to receive the FS-240, which is essentially evidence of US citizenship acquired by birth abroad.

If the FS-240 is not claimed by the child's 18th birthday, he has no claim to US citizenship by jus sanguinis.

This is how I got my passport.
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  #52  
Old 04.05.2012, 22:43
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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Not true. Birth to a US citizen abroad does not automatically confer citizenship to the child even if the parent's residency requirement(s) were met. Citizenship must be claimed by registering the birth at the nearest US diplomatic mission so as to receive the FS-240, which is essentially evidence of US citizenship acquired by birth abroad.

If the FS-240 is not claimed by the child's 18th birthday, he has no claim to US citizenship by jus sanguinis.

This is how I got my passport.
Quite true, my kids didn't get it automatically either.

However, if both parents are US citizens (and ONLY US citizens), then it's automatic.

Tom
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Old 04.05.2012, 22:45
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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For those with a Swiss passport, the Swiss do not record place of birth but rather commune of origin.
In the past.

The new chip ones have both (though place of birth is only on the chip, not written in the passport).

Tom
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Old 04.05.2012, 22:48
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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What will be the ramification for you heirs?
Simply, I will leave them nothing!

(or give it to them in cash, long beforehand)

Tom
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Old 04.05.2012, 22:53
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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(2) U.S. place of birth
Which means nothing, but which is why I'll be bringing 10x copies of my CLN with me when I go to the US at the end of June on vacation.

Tom
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Old 04.05.2012, 23:24
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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Not true. Birth to a US citizen abroad does not automatically confer citizenship to the child even if the parent's residency requirement(s) were met. Citizenship must be claimed by registering the birth at the nearest US diplomatic mission so as to receive the FS-240, which is essentially evidence of US citizenship acquired by birth abroad.

If the FS-240 is not claimed by the child's 18th birthday, he has no claim to US citizenship by jus sanguinis.

This is how I got my passport.
Far be it from me to argue with someone who may, after all, know something I do not, notwithstanding that I am qualified as a US lawyer, worked for 20 years for the US State Department, and have a PhD in nationality law. That I happen also to be Swiss is irrelevant. But I must say that "how [you] got your passport" proves nothing about what the law means. You might wish to point to us all, however, where the law mentions "18th birthday". Sadly, urban myths seem to influence citizens' perceptions more than truth. The book "The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs" published by OUP in 2008 is only one of many that marvel at the willingness of people to refuse to face reality: trutherism and intelligent design are just two examples.

I am not a regular reader of or contributor to this forum; I simply wanted to provide some gloss. Perhaps I should have added more references than I did.

Suffice to say, the issuance of a Certification of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States is evidentiary, not declaratory. The facts speak for themselves. You may wish to have a look at the litigation in various immigration courts over the issue of the US nationality or lack thereof of offspring of Mexican Americans born in Mexico who did not seek to move to the United States until adulthood. Often the issue in question was the residence of the American-born mother. The most interesting case, from my point of view, was, where "at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years" was (in the days when the statute read "... four of which ..." and not "... two of which ..." and was interpreted to render ineligible for US citizenship the child of a US-born woman who gave birth abroad before she reached the age of 18. (Indeed, this became one of the arguments of the Truthers.) Do not be fooled by the fact that consular officers have limited authority to deal with cases of American citizens born abroad once they reach age 5, and 18, respectively. That "A CRBA can be issued only at an American Consular Office overseas, and only before the child reaches 18 years of age" (and that after the age of 5, at least when I was involved in such things, the report had to be approved in Washington) is not a matter of law but rather a matter of combating fraud.

Anyway, if that were the case, Simas Kudirka would never have given rise to the diplomatic brouhaha (and the autobiography) that he did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Def..._Simas_Kudirka

There's a lot online:
http://www.insidemex.com/people/life...orn-in-the-usa


Other readers may understand better than either of us the plain meaning of the INA:

"The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
"(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
"(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
"(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;
(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;
"(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
"(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
"(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; ..."

I hope you find the above interesting, even if you don't believe it. There is, u unfortunately, a limit to the amount of time I can spend looking up references. I do find it quaint when people argue dogmatically (and wrongly) against facts and issues of law that my peers, at least, take for granted.
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  #57  
Old 07.05.2012, 10:26
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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In the past.

The new chip ones have both (though place of birth is only on the chip, not written in the passport).

Tom
Yeah, I had a sneaky suspiscion that was going on re. daughter's passport. It appals me that this is done secretively. All this to appease the USA to catch some accidental americans.
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Old 07.05.2012, 10:46
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

Perhaps Brusch did not say it in legal terms, and his/her point could be said differntly, but I cannot agree entirely with your post either.

First, the INA law you site has changed significantly in some places over the years, so one would have to look at the law as it stood in the year applicable to the person concerned. For example, for a US mother giving birth, the years spent in the US has gradually decreased in recent times.

Also, one would have to look at INA laws and other rules that have been in place over the years concerning 'loss of nationality'. This law has changed considerably over the years as well, so one would have to look at the law as it applied in the year concerned. For example, most swiss men have had to perform their military service upon reaching the age of majority, yet according to US law loss of nationality law, serving in a foreign army was grounds for loss of nationality, as was working for a foreign gov't etc. So, obviously there are many grounds for a person that the US thinks may be a citizen, is not a citizen because they performed one of the acts relevant at the time, ie. even naturalising as a foreign national. And I know that State Dept. practice on dual citizenship issue has drastically changed in recent times as well, over the last 20 years or so. Previously, it was presumed that you lost US citizenship when obtaining another nationality and if by chance you wanted to keep US nationality you had to go through a lot of hoops to try to keep it.

Finally there is the burden of proof. I would doubt that the state dept. or any other gov't agency is going to go out there proactively do the burden of proof, when citizenship is not automatic. Ok, maybe when the US is even more debt ridden than it already is, they might get so desperate, but then by that time everyone will have renounced/relinguished if it becomes that type of witchhunt.




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Far be it from me to argue with someone who may, after all, know something I do not, notwithstanding that I am qualified as a US lawyer, worked for 20 years for the US State Department, and have a PhD in nationality law. That I happen also to be Swiss is irrelevant. But I must say that "how [you] got your passport" proves nothing about what the law means. You might wish to point to us all, however, where the law mentions "18th birthday". Sadly, urban myths seem to influence citizens' perceptions more than truth. The book "The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs" published by OUP in 2008 is only one of many that marvel at the willingness of people to refuse to face reality: trutherism and intelligent design are just two examples.

I am not a regular reader of or contributor to this forum; I simply wanted to provide some gloss. Perhaps I should have added more references than I did.

Suffice to say, the issuance of a Certification of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States is evidentiary, not declaratory. The facts speak for themselves. You may wish to have a look at the litigation in various immigration courts over the issue of the US nationality or lack thereof of offspring of Mexican Americans born in Mexico who did not seek to move to the United States until adulthood. Often the issue in question was the residence of the American-born mother. The most interesting case, from my point of view, was, where "at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years" was (in the days when the statute read "... four of which ..." and not "... two of which ..." and was interpreted to render ineligible for US citizenship the child of a US-born woman who gave birth abroad before she reached the age of 18. (Indeed, this became one of the arguments of the Truthers.) Do not be fooled by the fact that consular officers have limited authority to deal with cases of American citizens born abroad once they reach age 5, and 18, respectively. That "A CRBA can be issued only at an American Consular Office overseas, and only before the child reaches 18 years of age" (and that after the age of 5, at least when I was involved in such things, the report had to be approved in Washington) is not a matter of law but rather a matter of combating fraud.

Anyway, if that were the case, Simas Kudirka would never have given rise to the diplomatic brouhaha (and the autobiography) that he did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Def..._Simas_Kudirka

There's a lot online:
http://www.insidemex.com/people/life...orn-in-the-usa


Other readers may understand better than either of us the plain meaning of the INA:

"The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
"(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
"(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
"(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;
(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;
"(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
"(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
"(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; ..."

I hope you find the above interesting, even if you don't believe it. There is, u unfortunately, a limit to the amount of time I can spend looking up references. I do find it quaint when people argue dogmatically (and wrongly) against facts and issues of law that my peers, at least, take for granted.
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Old 23.08.2012, 18:21
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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I spoke with Migros Bank today, concerning the GE stock. They are using it to link us to the States, since the stock will pay dividends. They are purchasing one GE stock in our name and are absorbing the costs, which actually surprised me a bit. The stock is about $19.50, so they will be spending a lot of money abide by these new regulations. I had assumed that they would pass the costs back to us.
I'd like to follow up on this. Migros sure did buy the stock for me (at a price a little higher than that). And then they promptly charged me CHF100 for it. So I paid not only for the stock, but Migros's standard fee for doing such transactions. Did you not have the same experience??
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Old 26.08.2012, 13:35
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Re: New Swiss banking regulations for U.S. citizens

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I'd like to follow up on this. Migros sure did buy the stock for me (at a price a little higher than that). And then they promptly charged me CHF100 for it. So I paid not only for the stock, but Migros's standard fee for doing such transactions. Did you not have the same experience??
Yes, I also had to pay the 100 chf. I had initially misunderstood our representative and thought Migros would absorb these costs. There will also be a 30 chf fee at end of year for maintaining this 'brokerage' account. I met with someone in Bern who said Migros Bank is the only bank doing it this way. The way I look at it, is at least we still have our accounts.
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