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  #41  
Old 24.07.2012, 22:04
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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And why would a foreign government care about the plight of US expats, as I really don't see this reciprocal tax charge thing happening?
Indeed. The only chance I see for other governments to do anything is for other countries to implement a reciprocity law like Brazil's - I'm wondering how that's going to play out.

But in the short to medium term, expect no relief, and if other governments do anything, don't expect it to benefit anyone other than their own citizens,
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Old 24.07.2012, 23:02
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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And why would a foreign government care about the plight of US expats, as I really don't see this reciprocal tax charge thing happening?
Firstly, US citizenship-based taxation forcibly removes wealth from their economies to their detriment (lost investment and lost consumption) but to the benefit of the US government (many of these "US Persons" may also be citizens of these foreign countries in question; hence their own constituents are being expropriated by a foreign tax authority).

Secondly, with FATCA coming up financial instutitions in these foreign countries will be exposed to the risk of facing steep non-compliance penalties, to the detriment of that foreign country's economy and to the benefit of the US government.

The whole concept of US citizenship-based taxation is a zero-sum game: the US economy benefits, but foreign economies lose money and the burden of compliance is completely removed from the US side. A reciprocal regime will simply share the pain with the US and demonstrate the pointlessness of having such a draconian extraterritorial tax regime.
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  #43  
Old 25.07.2012, 00:57
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Firstly, US citizenship-based taxation forcibly removes wealth from their economies to their detriment (lost investment and lost consumption) but to the benefit of the US government (many of these "US Persons" may also be citizens of these foreign countries in question; hence their own constituents are being expropriated by a foreign tax authority).

Secondly, with FATCA coming up financial instutitions in these foreign countries will be exposed to the risk of facing steep non-compliance penalties, to the detriment of that foreign country's economy and to the benefit of the US government.

The whole concept of US citizenship-based taxation is a zero-sum game: the US economy benefits, but foreign economies lose money and the burden of compliance is completely removed from the US side. A reciprocal regime will simply share the pain with the US and demonstrate the pointlessness of having such a draconian extraterritorial tax regime.
Wouldn't implementing and mainteining a reciprocal regime cost money? Seems much easier and cheaper for foreign economies to avoid US persons altogether. The banks have already started doing that...
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  #44  
Old 25.07.2012, 01:12
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Wouldn't implementing and mainteining a reciprocal regime cost money? Seems much easier and cheaper for foreign economies to avoid US persons altogether. The banks have already started doing that...
Not unless you recover the administrative costs by adding them into the reciprocal taxes the foreign governments impose .

It may sound like a silly scheme at first, but it is the best way to push the US to change its tax code.
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  #45  
Old 25.07.2012, 08:57
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

re: Schumer: he only cares about headlines. he will only talk and talk and talk and do nothing. i know firsthand.

re: FACTA: bad law, bad enforcement and no change in sight. the US is destroying itself with laws like this. we are doomed by "do-gooders" who understand so little.

re: i do think the law reads to terminate us, as in citizens, not accounts.
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  #46  
Old 25.07.2012, 09:25
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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We can all have such nice dreams.

US congressmen only understand one language - REELECTION.

ACA's website and writing letters to congressmen and to the US Ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein doesn't constitute a "punch below the belt".

Petition foreign governments to hit US companies with reciprocal corresponding tax charges and give the proceeds back to US expats. This is good for US expats and for foreign governments (US expat money stays in the local economy and US citizens may actually appreciate this and invest more in their countries of residence).

US congressmen will listen very carefully to the key constituents that will get them reelected, particularly those companies (who provide thousands of jobs in their congressional districts) penalized abroad due to reciprocity laws against IRS citizenship-based taxation.

If Congressmen don't listen, then fine, US expats get the money back anyway (taxes, penalties, interest, etc...), and have nothing to worry about.
The US Ambassador to Switzerland, Donald Beyer, reports to the Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and Eurasia, Phil Gordon (who in turn reports to Hillary Clinton). His contact details are below:

Assistant Secretary Philip H. Gordon
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington, DC 20520

Office: 6226
202-647-9626

We may wish to inform Phil Gordon how the US Ambassador to Switzerland has failed to work with Swiss authorities to ensure that Americans, resident in Switzerland, are not discriminated against in obtaining and maintaining ordinary bank accounts, mortages, rental deposit accounts, etc. We might wish to suggest that Donald Beyer be recalled due to his ongoing failure to adequately support the needs of ordinary Americans living and working here.
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  #47  
Old 30.07.2012, 22:31
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

The NY Times reported today that a bill is being introduced in the US Congress that would create a presidential commission "to take a sweeping look at how the federal government serves those abroad". The bill is sponsored by Carolyn Mahoney, a NY congresswoman, who is practically the only friend that overseas US citizens have in the House or Senate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/31/us...patriates.html

Don't hold your breath expecting anything to come of us.
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  #48  
Old 30.07.2012, 22:53
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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The NY Times reported today that a bill is being introduced in the US Congress that would create a presidential commission "to take a sweeping look at how the federal government serves those abroad". The bill is sponsored by Carolyn Mahoney, a NY congresswoman, who is practically the only friend that overseas US citizens have in the House or Senate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/31/us...patriates.html

Don't hold your breath expecting anything to come of us.
If there is no progress when the red book arrives in the mail, the blue book will be handed over to the US embassy in Berne!
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  #49  
Old 30.07.2012, 23:05
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

The GE Moneybank AG (Switzerland) no longer accepts US Persons as customers, according to the IsaacBrockSociety.ca website. This posting also lists other banks in CH that no longer accept Americans as customers.

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/07/...ng-us-persons/

Isn't there something ironic about a US bank accepting all nationalities as potential customers except Americans?
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  #50  
Old 30.07.2012, 23:22
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Not unless you recover the administrative costs by adding them into the reciprocal taxes the foreign governments impose .

It may sound like a silly scheme at first, but it is the best way to push the US to change its tax code.
So the Swiss govt should tax its citizens living in the US to compensate for what the US govt taxes its citizens here? Lets combat the US stupid tax laws with our own stupid tax laws. Losers Swiss citizens, the US govt wouldn't give a .....
The US taxes the difference between US and Swiss rates. How are the Swiss govt supposed to implement this.


Most of this has been spoken about here
US IRS helps itself to Swiss income

But the Swiss govt loses NO revenue through this. There is money withdrawn from US citizens in Switzerland which may or may not have finished up consumed in Switzerland. How many of us buy up back in the US, over the border, or does the taxation mean we have to cancel a nice foreign holiday.

I think Switzerland is doing quite nicely taxing US Expats local rates, US companies local rates and they (through their lack of interest/ action) have shown to be not to bothered by the US tax laws (and why should they) .

The tax laws suck and hurt the pocket when you are living here in a low tax / high cost of living domicile. Remember these laws have next to no effect for US expats in England, France, Germany (higher tax countries) so expats being hurt by this rule really aren't a massive majority.

The FATCA rules are designed to catch rich US citizens trying to avoid US tax laws (whether they reside in the US or abroad). Its an invasion in typical we can tell the world what to do US way and when people have their bank accounts closed down its not nice. The compliance costs may not be worth it for the banks and they understandably closing down accounts to avoid compliance and law suits.
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  #51  
Old 31.07.2012, 09:28
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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If there is no progress when the red book arrives in the mail, the blue book will be handed over to the US embassy in Berne!
You'll still have a wait of several years, and perhaps owe taxes for a bunch more, however!

Tom
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Old 31.07.2012, 11:13
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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..., the blue book will be handed over to the US embassy in Berne!
If time is of the essence, you may want to consider US embassy in Prague, Copenhagen, etc... seems the US embassy in Bern has a very long waiting list, whereas you can do the deed much faster and easier in another embassy. See isaacbrocksociety.ca for their nice compilation of relinquishments and renouncements data and comments by persons going through it, quite a lot of variations by embassies around the globe.
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  #53  
Old 31.07.2012, 11:19
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

Indeed, it doesn't need to be at your 'home' embassy, but you will need an appointment.

Tom
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  #54  
Old 31.07.2012, 17:51
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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If time is of the essence, you may want to consider US embassy in Prague, Copenhagen, etc... seems the US embassy in Bern has a very long waiting list, whereas you can do the deed much faster and easier in another embassy. See isaacbrocksociety.ca for their nice compilation of relinquishments and renouncements data and comments by persons going through it, quite a lot of variations by embassies around the globe.
There is a posting today on the isaacbrocksociety.ca board from someone in Switzerland who inquired at the US Embassy in Bern to book an appointment to renounce her US citizenship. Here's her input:

"I made a phone call this week (+41 31 357 7011 during routine telephone call hours from 2-4 PM) to US Consulate in Bern, Switzerland. After going through the touch-tone options I reached ACS and asked for renunciation information. Was forwarded to a female who spoke Swiss German.
Estimated wait for appointment: 1 month. CLN 2-3 months. They confirm that they have increased their staff handling renunciations from 1 to 3, and that an attestation may be provided on the day of renunciation but not a certified copy of the renunciation forms.
They did ask me where I lived (Fribourg) but I forgot to ask them if they were accepting renunciations from people resident in neighboring countries. Sorry.
They did say that they have hundreds of applications being processed, where before there were only a handful a month."


http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/...ge-9/#comments
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Old 31.07.2012, 21:06
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

That's good to know Curt, but if there are hundreds of applications coming it it sounds as if the queues may go up again. VERY interesting that they've had to increase staff numbers to deal with so many applications. Do you think they might finally be getting the hint about the trouble FATCA is causing their own citizens?
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Old 03.08.2012, 19:06
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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That's good to know Curt, but if there are hundreds of applications coming it it sounds as if the queues may go up again. VERY interesting that they've had to increase staff numbers to deal with so many applications. Do you think they might finally be getting the hint about the trouble FATCA is causing their own citizens?
As I've known only one US citizen who has definitely renounced, it would be speculation on my part to offer an informed opinion on why Americans are giving back their US citizenship. Yesterday's WSJ carried an article on this topic with some anecdotal reasons why US citizens are renouncing:

http://blogs.wsj.com/totalreturn/201...DS=citizenship
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Old 03.08.2012, 20:51
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You'll still have a wait of several years, and perhaps owe taxes for a bunch more, however!

Tom
How so? My understanding is if you don't meet the threshhold for an exit tax, you are clean the following fiscal year after you blue book is gone.
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Old 03.08.2012, 20:57
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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That's good to know Curt, but if there are hundreds of applications coming it it sounds as if the queues may go up again. VERY interesting that they've had to increase staff numbers to deal with so many applications. Do you think they might finally be getting the hint about the trouble FATCA is causing their own citizens?
That "hint" better be recognized quickly because sooner or later, renunciations in Switzerland will take a steep drop since there will no longer be any US/CH dual citizens around!
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Old 03.08.2012, 21:09
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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That "hint" better be recognized quickly because sooner or later, renunciations in Switzerland will take a steep drop since there will no longer be any US/CH dual citizens around!
Too true! And it'll be the same in other countries when they're US and dual US citizens suddenly realise what's heading for them. Canada is already seeing renunciations increasing and people also looking to see if they can relinquish.
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Old 03.08.2012, 23:45
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

Apparently to comply with FATCA, one of the major Swiss banks is requiring the following information from each of its customers. Posted today on IsaacBrockSociety.ca website:


"To open/ maintain a current account at one of the major banks in Switzerland, the following master data is now required (translated). Please see section in bold letters below:

Bank Relationship Basic Data Declaration
Type of Bank Relationship: Single-Owner in Person’s Name
Document Status: First Declaration
Owner of Bank Relationship:
Title, Name, First Name, Street/ Nr., Postal Code/ Town, Country
Date of Birth, Nationality
Telephone Home, Telephone Business
Declaration of Status of Customer as Non US-Person or US-Person (ID)
1. Are you a US Citizen? Yes/ No
(You must answer with “Yes” in the event that you possess more citizenships including US citizenship)
2. Were you born in the USA (or in one of the US Territories)? Yes/ No

3. Are you in possession of an American “Green Card” (independent of expiry date)? Yes/ No

4. Do you have residence in the USA from a US tax perspective? Yes/ No

5. Irrespective of the above Substantial Physical Presence Test are you resident still in the USA? Yes/ No

The customer is obliged to inform the bank immediately if his status as a Non-US Person changes per US tax law. The customer acknowledges and accepts that the neglect to inform the bank immediately of any change in his status as a Non-US Person, respectively, any misrepresentation in connection with his status as a Non-US Person, is justification for the bank to cancel the bank relationship without notification."
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