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  #141  
Old 17.08.2012, 12:58
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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However, as far as I know they are now requiring copies of US tax forms from the past several years in order to renounce, somewhat problematic for those who haven't been filing them!

Tom
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http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_776.html

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION

Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

If the above is understood correctly, proof of tax compliance is not required to renounce. However if you renounce and are not compliant with taxes, then you may have to avoid the US indefinitely unless you can secure a presidential pardon like Mr. Rich .

Relinquishing is shorter (1 appointment if I understand it right), no fee and no oath required at the Consulate/Embassy. Also, if you relinquish and the effective date is a long time ago, CLN will be backdated to when the expatriating act occurred, meaning you are not liable to any taxes since your backdated CLN was supposed to be issued.
It depends if you can meet the following criteria:

Compliance Test
The expatriate does not certify that he met all U.S. tax obligations for the five years before expatriation.

If any one of these tests applies to you on the date of your expatriation, then you are considered a “covered expatriate” and the provisions of the exit tax, or “billionaires’ amendment” as Senator Kennedy named it, apply to you.

There is only one exception for adults. If you received citizenship of both the U.S. and some other country at birth (yes I did), if you continue to hold the citizenship of that country (yes I do), if you are taxed as a resident of that country (yes I am), AND if you have been a resident of the U.S. for no more than 10 of the 15 years prior to renouncing U.S. citizenship (left in 1969), you’re exempted from the exit tax provision.

That makes me a covered expatriate who's exempted from the exit tax provision. I'd need to file a 8854 form but that seems to be it taxwise. There are other test parts to the "billionaires' amendment" but the income/wealth figures required to bring them into play here are far beyond my modest means.

No, you don't have to prove you're tax compliant to renounce; there's even a box on the renunciation application form to be ticked yes/no about whether you are or not. But yes, if you can't meet the covered expat criteria and don't want to file US returns then you may well need to avoid travelling to US for any reason as you could be arrested for non-compliance/avoidance.

Yes, the $450 fee for renouncing is a pain, but cheaper than paying accountants to sort out complicated forms every year even though you may not actually owe the US any money.
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  #142  
Old 17.08.2012, 13:13
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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I know someone who relinquished in the last 12 months. ...

It might be different if you started filing taxes at some point and the IRS had you in their system but this was her example.
I wouldn't hold my breath too much, 12 months is hardly long enough to get your CLN and your name published in the Federal Register.

If I recall correctly, normal statue of limitations is 6 years, but if willful evasion there is no statue of limitations.

They clearly have plenty of time to catch up with her.
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  #143  
Old 17.08.2012, 13:49
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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I wouldn't hold my breath too much, 12 months is hardly long enough to get your CLN and your name published in the Federal Register.

If I recall correctly, normal statue of limitations is 6 years, but if willful evasion there is no statue of limitations.

They clearly have plenty of time to catch up with her.
Sorry, but what is a CLN? I found Credit Linked Note when I googled, but couldn't figure out what that means
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  #144  
Old 17.08.2012, 15:06
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

Certificate of Loss of Nationality.

Tom
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  #145  
Old 17.08.2012, 17:51
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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(Again, if you are affected, please write your congresspersons - and please tell your story to ACA.)
We don't have any congresspersons, we have no representation.
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  #146  
Old 18.08.2012, 01:16
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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We don't have any congresspersons, we have no representation.
I wish there were a program in place that would allow US citizens to trade in their US passports for Canadian ones.
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  #147  
Old 18.08.2012, 16:20
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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We don't have any congresspersons, we have no representation.
Yes you do - you vote in the district of your last US address, even if you no longer own the property. So the congresscritter of your last district of residence still represents you.

Or I should say, is supposed to represent you.
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  #148  
Old 18.08.2012, 16:46
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Yes you do - you vote in the district of your last US address, even if you no longer own the property. So the congresscritter of your last district of residence still represents you.

Or I should say, is supposed to represent you.
Good luck with that one, especially if you've been out of the country for over 40 years like me.!
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  #149  
Old 18.08.2012, 16:56
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Key idea is "live there again".

I would never, ever, wish to live again in the US. Last visit was the nail in the coffin.

Also, what's one's home country? Mine is here, where my IMMEDIATE family lives, not my ancestors or cousins! If one's home was based on their ancestry, most Americans wouldn't even be American!

Lastly, how are American ideals any different than Swiss ideals?

Tom
.................Much
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  #150  
Old 18.08.2012, 17:07
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Swiss Ideals are arguably way better than American Ideals.

Swiss politicians don't broker with large industrialists to turn a blind eye on the massive inflow of illegal immigrants (cheap labor).

Swiss don't put C Permits and Passports for sale like the US does for those with money.

Swiss don't bitch and moan about the price of gas as if they are entitled to a free commodity.

Swiss manage their economy and finances with a good head.

Swiss don't go to war.
Whoah!!!! They have been wage dumping for quite awhile here, just look at the massive influx of German nationals(no offense German people) most recently, and previously Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Turks, Polish, Tamils to name a few.

Swiss complain just like anyone else.

Swiss don't go to war, but have an active military, that has most of their men doing required military service, or paying a tax if they don't do that service, and when they back out of war it's not peace mongering, it's being "strategically neutral". I am not saying it is the US's responsibility to go to war with anyone. And personally I was anti war with Iraq, but let's see people's reaction here when Austria kills a couple thousand people in Zurich in one go.

Switzerland is active in military operations outside of Switzerland. Just because they aren't declaring war on anyone, doesn't mean actively killing other people, giving logistical support, artillery, and the like doesn't mean they are free of being involved in other people's wars. And they have been throughout history the paid mercenaries of choice.

Not that any of this has to do with Raiffessehn closing US bank accounts.
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  #151  
Old 18.08.2012, 17:32
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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However, as far as I know they are now requiring copies of US tax forms from the past several years in order to renounce, somewhat problematic for those who haven't been filing them!

Tom
Yeah but that can be solved with a tax attorney over a few weeks time.
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  #152  
Old 18.08.2012, 21:28
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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It depends if you can meet the following criteria:

Compliance Test
The expatriate does not certify that he met all U.S. tax obligations for the five years before expatriation.

If any one of these tests applies to you on the date of your expatriation, then you are considered a “covered expatriate” and the provisions of the exit tax, or “billionaires’ amendment” as Senator Kennedy named it, apply to you.

There is only one exception for adults. If you received citizenship of both the U.S. and some other country at birth (yes I did), if you continue to hold the citizenship of that country (yes I do), if you are taxed as a resident of that country (yes I am), AND if you have been a resident of the U.S. for no more than 10 of the 15 years prior to renouncing U.S. citizenship (left in 1969), you’re exempted from the exit tax provision.

That makes me a covered expatriate who's exempted from the exit tax provision. I'd need to file a 8854 form but that seems to be it taxwise. There are other test parts to the "billionaires' amendment" but the income/wealth figures required to bring them into play here are far beyond my modest means.

No, you don't have to prove you're tax compliant to renounce; there's even a box on the renunciation application form to be ticked yes/no about whether you are or not. But yes, if you can't meet the covered expat criteria and don't want to file US returns then you may well need to avoid travelling to US for any reason as you could be arrested for non-compliance/avoidance.

Yes, the $450 fee for renouncing is a pain, but cheaper than paying accountants to sort out complicated forms every year even though you may not actually owe the US any money.
I don't think it is that simple. The notion of covered expatriate applies to the exit tax and if you are a covered expatriate you don't have to worry about the exit tax. But you still have to be in compliance with all you US tax obligations (Filing an income tax return, FBAR, paying your due taxes, etc...). The IRS gets a list of all the people who renounce. Do they make any use of it? I don't know. But if they do, somebody who renounced it that way might find themselves in trouble when showing up at a US airport....
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  #153  
Old 18.08.2012, 22:02
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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No, you don't have to prove you're tax compliant to renounce; there's even a box on the renunciation application form to be ticked yes/no about whether you are or not. But yes, if you can't meet the covered expat criteria and don't want to file US returns then you may well need to avoid travelling to US for any reason as you could be arrested for non-compliance/avoidance.
That's what I said.
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  #154  
Old 18.08.2012, 23:31
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Whoah!!!! They have been wage dumping for quite awhile here, just look at the massive influx of German nationals(no offense German people) most recently, and previously Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Turks, Polish, Tamils to name a few.
These are not illegals, they are here with work permits which fall within defined quotas (if non-EU or new EU countries). Switzerland is fully aware and knowledgeable of virtually every immigrant that comes in and there is nothing like an illegal immigration problem in this country like in the United States. There may be a tiny numng.ber of illegals in Switzerland, but they would not last long!

If these foreign nationals wish to reside permanently or get a passport, then they have to go through all the loops to show integration, knowledge of the local language, respect for local values and demonstrate no security threat.

Does it work 100%? Probably not, but it definitely works somewhere near 95%, way better than the US.

And the C Permit is definitely not for sale like the US Green Card (investment program). Permanent residents in Switzerland demonstrate a defined level of attachment to the country.

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Swiss complain just like anyone else.
No argument there. There is an economic necessity for migrant labor, but Switzerland follows a much better thought out legal system and process to ensure immigration is kept orderly and does a way better job to ensure immigrants integrate.

Also, any migrants that attempt to abuse social welfare, unemployment benefits or any type of government aid will quickly be shown the door.

The US? hm hm hm...

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Swiss don't go to war, but have an active military, that has most of their men doing required military service, or paying a tax if they don't do that service, and when they back out of war it's not peace mongering, it's being "strategically neutral". I am not saying it is the US's responsibility to go to war with anyone. And personally I was anti war with Iraq, but let's see people's reaction here when Austria kills a couple thousand people in Zurich in one go.
The "active component" of the Swiss military is tiny; the Swiss Army, in actuality, is more of a militia for national defense.

And what is the problem of doing military service, especially when the country hasn't been involved in an external conflict since 1815?
Swiss haven't been belligerently involved in an external armed conflict since 1815 and have been very intelligent not to meddle in other peoples' affairs.

When Austria kills a couple of thousand people in Zurich? Wow, random nonsense , Whatever you are smoking my friend, give me some .

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Switzerland is active in military operations outside of Switzerland. Just because they aren't declaring war on anyone, doesn't mean actively killing other people, giving logistical support, artillery, and the like doesn't mean they are free of being involved in other people's wars.
No they are not; they are involved in unarmed peacekeeping operations, and the contribution is actually peanuts (dozens of servicemen) and has more to do with it being a neutral arbitrator accepted by all parties.

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And they have been throughout history the paid mercenaries of choice.
Almost entirely before 1815 (even before the Geneva Conventions defined the status of mercenaries in international law), when Swiss Neutrality was formally declared and respected by all European powers. Since then, mercenaries have been in decline and the only unit officially allowed since the mid-19th century is Swiss Guard in the Vatican. Now every citizen has a right to go on his own to a foreign conflict, but this in no way represents the country in any shape or form.
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  #155  
Old 18.08.2012, 23:58
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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And the C Permit is definitely not for sale like the US Green Card (investment program). Permanent residents in Switzerland demonstrate a defined level of attachment to the country.
Nonesence B permits are sold all the time to people who do Tax deals, most will turn into C permits after 5 years.
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  #156  
Old 19.08.2012, 03:11
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Nonesence B permits are sold all the time to people who do Tax deals, most will turn into C permits after 5 years.
Green Cards are given immediately to investors will all rights and obligations.

Tax B Permit holders have limited rights (no gainful employment allowed).
However, I'm not sure if tax B permit years qualify for C permits.
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  #157  
Old 19.08.2012, 03:33
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No argument there. There is an economic necessity for migrant labor, but Switzerland follows a much better thought out legal system and process to ensure immigration is kept orderly and does a way better job to ensure immigrants integrate.
If that were true, even in a perfect world, the plastering of the SVP posters all around the country last summer with the Nazi-style anti-immigration posters wouldn't have lasted more than a day much less the months they actually did. Immigrants are tolerated mostly, not welcomed and the difference is important. Integrate...I suspect you must be new here.
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  #158  
Old 19.08.2012, 10:44
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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Green Cards are given immediately to investors will all rights and obligations.

Tax B Permit holders have limited rights (no gainful employment allowed).
However, I'm not sure if tax B permit years qualify for C permits.
They are not called 'Tax B permits', they are B permits issued for 5 years, which become 'C' permits for EU at renewal.
Those years also count towards getting a passport.......
In Switzerland, if you have money closed doors can generally be opened.
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Old 20.08.2012, 10:13
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Re: Raiffeisen to terminate all US customers

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I wish there were a program in place that would allow US citizens to trade in their US passports for Canadian ones.
My kids have both (plus Swiss), and are thinking of giving up the US and just keep the Canadian (and Swiss).

Tom
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Old 21.08.2012, 02:20
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My kids have both (plus Swiss), and are thinking of giving up the US and just keep the Canadian (and Swiss).

Tom
Wow, Canadian-Swiss, that's the best combo ever. No subjection to a confiscatory extraterritorial tax bully, right to live and work in EU/EFTA and US (upon requesting TN status).

Cheers!
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