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  #81  
Old 31.10.2008, 11:20
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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Hi

I am wondering how often the rates for a given bank change?

I am hesitating between opening an account:
By Postfinance (2.75%)
By Brienz Oberhasli (3%)

I suppose Postfinance would be more efficient (I think they are also have an unlimited state guarantee in case they go bankrupt) but Brienz Oberhasli offer a higher percentage.

Is the extra 0.25% worth it? Could the Postfinance interests possibly rise above those of Brienz Oberhasli in the near future (or not go down as much)?
Attention: PostFinance is only an agent for the 3a deposits. The assets are in a UBS controlled Foundation. Hence, no 100% state guarantee. Only the usual 30k at UBS (including other assets there).
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  #82  
Old 31.10.2008, 20:22
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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Hi

I am wondering how often the rates for a given bank change?

I am hesitating between opening an account:
By Postfinance (2.75%)
By Brienz Oberhasli (3%)

I suppose Postfinance would be more efficient (I think they are also have an unlimited state guarantee in case they go bankrupt) but Brienz Oberhasli offer a higher percentage.

Is the extra 0.25% worth it? Could the Postfinance interests possibly rise above those of Brienz Oberhasli in the near future (or not go down as much)?
BBO Brienz have announced that the rate is decreasing to 2.75% effective 1st Dec 2008.
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  #83  
Old 05.11.2008, 23:26
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

Hi,

A couple of questions - good advice needed..

1. I'm leaving Switzerland for an EU country early next year. By paying in 3a this year, I avoid some Swiss taxes and would pay some Swiss taxes on the withdrawal next year instead but wouldn't the EU country tax me (based on the tax treaty) on the withdrawal (with a higher tax rate less the small amount of Swiss taxes) - any experience?

2. I haven't been part of the Swiss social security system (no AHV, not sure about 2nd Pillar) - what does this mean for my possible 3a participation:
- able to participate at all?
- max amount roughly 6 KCHF or 30 KCHF?

Thanks for any replies.
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  #84  
Old 06.11.2008, 16:45
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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Hi,

A couple of questions - good advice needed..

1. I'm leaving Switzerland for an EU country early next year. By paying in 3a this year, I avoid some Swiss taxes and would pay some Swiss taxes on the withdrawal next year instead but wouldn't the EU country tax me (based on the tax treaty) on the withdrawal (with a higher tax rate less the small amount of Swiss taxes) - any experience?

2. I haven't been part of the Swiss social security system (no AHV, not sure about 2nd Pillar) - what does this mean for my possible 3a participation:
- able to participate at all?
- max amount roughly 6 KCHF or 30 KCHF?

Thanks for any replies.
  1. I cannot say anything about the tax law of an unnamed EU country. I suspect the 3a redemption is not taxable in the other country because it is a withdrawal of capital and not an income.
  2. Tax deduction on 3a contributions is only possible from income that was subject to AHV. If you paid no AHV, then no income deduction for 3a.
I am intrigued that you have income but escaped AHV!
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  #85  
Old 06.11.2008, 19:45
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

Hi,

Thanks Goldtop for the reply. No 3a contribution for me then.

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I am intrigued that you have income but escaped AHV!
More information on the AHV escape (I do have to pay a minor amount to the EU country - I think it was something like 2% of the salary):
http://www.sozialversicherungen.admi...9/309_1_de.pdf
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  #86  
Old 10.11.2008, 12:03
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

I need to open a 3rd Pillar account, not sure which bank I should use. I live and work in canton Zurich. I have all of my (Swiss) savings with UBS, so I want to avoid them (and PostFinance as pointed out above)

I saw on comparis that ZKB offer 2.25% although I've also heard that they are not taking any new customers, but I'm not sure if that only applies to normal savings accounts - anyone know?

http://www.comparis.ch/banken/vorsor...eich-zins.aspx

Credit Suisse also offer 2.25%, but I'm not so sure about having all my money with the 2 "big" Swiss Banks. I don't know much about Raiffeisen (mentioned above), they might be worth a look
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  #87  
Old 10.11.2008, 13:33
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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Credit Suisse also offer 2.25%, but I'm not so sure about having all my money with the 2 "big" Swiss Banks. I don't know much about Raiffeisen (mentioned above), they might be worth a look
Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't understand why you would want to open a 3a account at the Credit Suisse when there are at least 20 banks offering a better rate?
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  #88  
Old 10.11.2008, 14:53
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't understand why you would want to open a 3a account at the Credit Suisse when there are at least 20 banks offering a better rate?
But aren't most of those Kantonalbanks - are there any restrictions on opening accounts with these banks if you don't live or work in that Canton? Perhaps an incorrect assumption of mine, but I suspect not many would have a branch nearby anyway.

Credit Suisse, perhaps because of familiarity, English language correspondence & website, many branches nearby etc.
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Old 10.11.2008, 15:20
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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But aren't most of those Kantonalbanks - are there any restrictions on opening accounts with these banks if you don't live or work in that Canton? Perhaps an incorrect assumption of mine, but I suspect not many would have a branch nearby anyway.
I am not sure about that? I thought it was ok to have a 3a account with any Cantonal Bank but now you mention it I feel you might be right. However there are other banks apart from Cantonal Banks that offer a higher rate than the Credit Suisse.

Does it really matter if there is no branch in the canton. It is only a savings account after all so you don't really need to have access to your account on a daily basis.

I suppose the language could be an issue.
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  #90  
Old 10.11.2008, 17:49
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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That is exactly how it is calculated and then the marigal tax rate recalculated and the difference given back.
Could you explain exactly what the big thing about 3a is?

Okay, I save taxes when I pay in, but then I pay them when I take the money out.

So rather than saving taxes, am I not deferring them?

And seeing we are living in a period that taxes are very low, is it not better to pay them now than to speculatively defer payment to a point in the distant future when taxes may be much higher?
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  #91  
Old 10.11.2008, 22:14
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

For most people the taxes you save now, due to deducting the 3a contribution, exceed the taxes you pay later on redeeming the 3a. Redemption is however only allowed when leaving Switzerland and a few other reasons.

Moreover, 3a accounts have higher interest rates. The assets in 3a are exempt from wealth tax. The interest from 3a is exempt from income tax.
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  #92  
Old 11.11.2008, 13:13
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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For most people the taxes you save now, due to deducting the 3a contribution, exceed the taxes you pay later on redeeming the 3a.
The problem being that you don't really know how taxation will be in ten or twenty years.
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Old 11.11.2008, 20:12
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

You can have an account in another kanton, no problem. Aarguaer Kantonalbank for example, I choose them as tax rates in Aarau on leaving are low here if you are not a millionaire , hmm I mean, if you contributed the maximum per year for less than 5 years, like a lot of expats might do, they are quite low there. Edit: yes Goldtop is right, it is the foundation's location that matters. But I remember I checked that with them (but do check yourself to be sure). That is why there are many 3a foundations located in the low tax cantons. There is one kanton with such foundations for the truly rich, but if you are, you probably already know about this kanton . Schwyz it is.

Last edited by muze7; 13.11.2008 at 15:54.
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  #94  
Old 11.11.2008, 22:59
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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The problem being that you don't really know how taxation will be in ten or twenty years.
Yes, nobody can accurately forecast the future. Fortunately, tax rates and tax laws never change dramatically in Switzerland. Almost all Swiss have 3a plans. So increasing taxes on 3a redemption has no political support.

We are grateful to all who want to pay more taxes now.
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  #95  
Old 11.11.2008, 23:09
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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You can have an account in another kanton, no problem. Aarguaer Kantonalbank for example, I choose them as tax rates in Aarau on leaving are low here if you are not a millionaire , hmm I mean, if you contributed less than 5 years, they are quite low there.
Careful! Please verify where the 3a Foundation is located. That is crucial. Not where the Bank is. The Kantonal Banks have a joint Foundation (SwissCanto) http://www.swisscanto.ch/ch/en/index.html
I vaguely remember that it is registered in Basel. If so, Basel taxation will apply to non resident former expats.
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Old 13.11.2008, 15:13
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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Yes, nobody can accurately forecast the future. Fortunately, tax rates and tax laws never change dramatically in Switzerland.
That's not my observation.

I had the impression there has been massive competition between cantons and communities to undercut one another's tax rates in order to attract buiness and residents.

I'm not sure how much of that is sustainable in the long term. Many cantons are communities are squeezed to the limit in terms of budget restraint, so further significant cuts are unlikely. I do think tax rises are a realistic scenario in the medium term future.
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Old 13.11.2008, 15:19
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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That's not my observation.

I had the impression there has been massive competition between cantons and communities to undercut one another's tax rates in order to attract buiness and residents.

I'm not sure how much of that is sustainable in the long term. Many cantons are communities are squeezed to the limit in terms of budget restraint, so further significant cuts are unlikely. I do think tax rises are a realistic scenario in the medium term future.
Some peripheral cantons (Obwalden comes to mind) indulge in tax dumping. However, their location is such that very few would want to actually live there. So, it is mainly attractive to holding companies or non-resident foreigners.
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Old 14.11.2008, 13:37
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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Some peripheral cantons (Obwalden comes to mind) indulge in tax dumping. However, their location is such that very few would want to actually live there. So, it is mainly attractive to holding companies or non-resident foreigners.
The peripheral cantons may have been the most extreme in their tax cuts, but most others have followed suite, the German speaking ones maybe more aggressively than the French speaking ones. Zug is very attractive fiscally and you can't really call it peripheral or unnattractive as fars as other aspects are concerned. Many parts of Zug are effectively in Zürich's outer commuter belt, and the competition has also influenced Zurich's fiscal policies.

But even Obwalden is in my eyes not just a place for holding companies and non residents. You have access to good winter sport areas plus proximity to Berne and Lucerne, nice scenery and relatively affordable housing, low crime rates, etc. I think you can attract a lot of investors with that.
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Old 14.11.2008, 19:24
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

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The peripheral cantons may have been the most extreme in their tax cuts, but most others have followed suite, the German speaking ones maybe more aggressively than the French speaking ones. Zug is very attractive fiscally and you can't really call it peripheral or unnattractive as fars as other aspects are concerned. Many parts of Zug are effectively in Zürich's outer commuter belt, and the competition has also influenced Zurich's fiscal policies.

But even Obwalden is in my eyes not just a place for holding companies and non residents. You have access to good winter sport areas plus proximity to Berne and Lucerne, nice scenery and relatively affordable housing, low crime rates, etc. I think you can attract a lot of investors with that.
How is all this relevant to the 3rd pillar provident fund?
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  #100  
Old 21.11.2008, 14:41
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Re: 3rd Pillar Pension Fund

=The maximum tax-deductible contributions in 2008 are:=
  • CHF 6,365 for those who belong to a Pillar 2 occupational benefits plan
  • CHF 31,824 for gainfully employed persons who do not belong to a Pillar 2 plan (maximum of 20% of the net income from gainful employment)
just in case anyone was searching like me
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