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  #41  
Old 06.09.2012, 21:18
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

The Americans in Switzerland Working Group seems to understand the situation quite well:

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Two main types of problems were identified during the discussions of policies affecting overseas Americans: (1) many current U.S. laws and regulations are seriously unfair, intimidating, and discriminatory, especially in their impacts on women, and (2) these policies unnecessarily put American individuals and enterprises at a considerable competitive disadvantage in international markets.
http://www.amiswg.org/Mission.html


The only reason why the US government is practicing crimes against US persons abroad, is because such is outside of US jurisdiction.
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  #42  
Old 06.09.2012, 21:33
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

Why do people so reliably parrot the "tax evasion" line whenever FATCA/FBAR enforcement comes up? These laws are atrocious and demeaning, and only enforceable because they are also issued by the world's wannabe policeman.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/us...pagewanted=all

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Some typical laments include:

•Roy, 37, a lifelong Canadian resident and citizen whose dual-national mother fears the U.S. tax authorities will target the modest savings account the Canadian government provides him as a developmentally disabled adult;

•Jonathan, 34, a teacher whose American parents migrated to Canada 39 years ago. He considers himself 100 percent Canadian — a maple leaf is tattooed on his back — and believed until last year that he did not need to file a U.S. return. Tax advisers now tell him he must file eight years’ returns, at a cost in fees and fines in the thousands, lest an eventual U.S. inheritance be jeopardized;

•The teenage children of Peter Hallworth, a Briton married to a Swede living in Malmo, Sweden; the children were born in the United States but lived there only as infants. Mr. Hallworth, having heard horror stories, now expects to urge his children, when they reach adulthood, to renounce the U.S. citizenship that up to now he had treasured.
FATCA and FBAR make U.S. born children virtually unadoptable for non-U.S parents
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpre...n-u-s-parents/
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  #43  
Old 06.09.2012, 21:59
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Why do people so reliably parrot the "tax evasion" line whenever FATCA/FBAR enforcement comes up? These laws are atrocious and demeaning, and only enforceable because they are also issued by the world's wannabe policeman.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/us...pagewanted=all



FATCA and FBAR make U.S. born children virtually unadoptable for non-U.S parents
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpre...n-u-s-parents/
So why do you think FATCA/ FBAR was enacted?
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  #44  
Old 06.09.2012, 22:07
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

Each morning when I get out of bed I realize it is one day closer to the relinquishment of my US citizenship. Then I smile because this US citizenship burden, which has been making me unhappy, will be gone soon and I will be free again.
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  #45  
Old 07.09.2012, 06:25
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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So why do you think FATCA/ FBAR was enacted?
It was enacted in response to some stateside Americans who were earning money without paying taxes. The idea of FATCA/FBAR is good, since it is good to take action against crime, but the implementation of FATCA is criminal (my view) since it harms the innocent, not taking Americans living abroad into consideration. The problem is that Americans abroad have no representation in the States and thus the US government passes laws without reviewing the impact such may have on those living outside of its jurisdiction.
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  #46  
Old 07.09.2012, 09:38
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

It just dawned on me. I know what FUBAR stands for.

Is FBAR a similar, more pithy, epithet?
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  #47  
Old 07.09.2012, 10:16
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Respectfully DISAGREE!!!

Residents of other countries do not take advantage of anything the taxes in their home countries are paid for. Thus WHY should they pay taxes back home???
Therefore US citizens living abroad who do not pay taxes in the US are not evading taxes in all but the US definition of the term (which is just WRONG)!!!

The GREEDY US government is to blame.

BTW: I am neither a US citizen nor was I ever.
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I suppose then you would be happy to pay the difference between taxes in UK and CH to Mr. Cameron or the Queen?

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So why do you think FATCA/ FBAR was enacted?
I suppose that was a rhetorical question

Last edited by jrspet; 07.09.2012 at 10:21. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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  #48  
Old 07.09.2012, 11:12
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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If FATCA is not a crime, then stateside Americans won't complain if their mortgages are cancelled for being US citizens by US banks simply because US banks don't want to comply with some new rule. The US government can get away with this overseas since Americans abroad don't have any representation, but if the US government tried this in the States, HUD would be very very busy with discrimination complaints concerning federal laws.



This means that FATCA is pressuring banks to reject US citizens since it gives banks the option of rejecting Americans in order to not comply with FATCA.
Well banks in America provide the IRS with the information they need. FATCA is about ensuring Foreign banks, with American clients, do the same. So that America can implement and maintain the taxation of their citizens worldwide, like it has done for many many many years, more easily, without tax havens and banking secrecy depriving their economy of billions of dollars.
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  #49  
Old 07.09.2012, 11:24
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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I suppose then you would be happy to pay the difference between taxes in UK and CH to Mr. Cameron or the Queen?


I suppose that was a rhetorical question
Well of course not, but you seem to be missing the point. Sure, Americans can be annoyed, frustrated, upset by paying worldwide tax, but what is new about that concept?

The only new thing recently is a clamp down on those that chose to forget paying taxes when they left, those who have never paid tax full stop, those who have not reported income hidden in a country with bank secrecy laws but the banks have been pressured and sold out to a certain extent to not be so secret.

So, whilst there is a number of accidental citizens who have been caught up in this, and whilst there are a number of Americans who have seen their compliance bills go up to meet all the reporting requirements, and whilst some banks have decided the American client is a bit too much to deal with at the moment causing personal banking frustrations, you are making a point about tax, which has not changed.
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  #50  
Old 07.09.2012, 13:08
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Well banks in America provide the IRS with the information they need.
Currently, yes, but if the IRS came up with some new rule which resulted in US banks refusing to provide Americans with banking services, then the discussion would be focused on US federal crimes being performed against US citizens.

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FATCA is about ensuring Foreign banks, with American clients, do the same. So that America can implement and maintain the taxation of their citizens worldwide, like it has done for many many many years, more easily, without tax havens and banking secrecy depriving their economy of billions of dollars.
If America still insists that it must double-tax the already taxed, then it must attempt to do so without causing the innocent to be harmed. This doesn't seem to be possible. Currently, FATCA simply means that the US insists on causing unnecessary harm to the innocent living outside of US jurisdiction, but that defeats the pro-double-tax argument. Double-taxing the same income of those denied banking services, is something the Mafia might do:

"The Mafia tax affects almost every business on the island of Sicily"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6976779.stm

Normally, one would think that Sicilian businesses were only taxed by the Italian government, given that neither the Mafia nor America is not the Sicilian government. Yet, some Sicilians are not only double-taxed by the Mafia, but by America too and now their banks are going to deny them banking services since they are taxed by the Mafia or America, regardless of Italian government tax collection efforts. Is this why Italy has so much debt?

Italy National Debt Clock
http://nationaldebtclocks.com/italy.htm

Last edited by SwissPinoy; 07.09.2012 at 13:54.
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  #51  
Old 07.09.2012, 16:10
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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...We're not talking all humans for a start, we are talking Americans...


Are You implying Americans are not humans? They are not my favourite nation either, but still: Com' on have some respect!!
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  #52  
Old 07.09.2012, 17:10
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Are You implying Americans are not humans? They are not my favourite nation either, but still: Com' on have some respect!!
You have got to be having a cold bean bath, right?

I quoted someone who said "all humans are now denied banking services"....because of this FATCA issue, and I corrected them in saying not all humans, just Americans, as in.......ahhh forget it
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  #53  
Old 07.09.2012, 17:46
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

Not sure I would lend credence to JordanBarrZurich86's argument here.

Nothing personal, but a tax professional who profits from the demands of more advisory, compliance and paperwork generated by FATCA and US citizenship-based taxation would definitely try to shield the status quo as much as possible.

Are you a US citizen JordanBarrZurich86?

If not, I don't blame you, I would be cheering The status quo as much as possible also if I were a non-American tax adviser advising Americans.
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  #54  
Old 07.09.2012, 18:02
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Not sure I would lend credence to JordanBarrZurich86's argument here.

Nothing personal, but a tax professional who profits from the demands of more advisory, compliance and paperwork generated by FATCA and US citizenship-based taxation would definitely try to shield the status quo as much as possible.

Are you a US citizen JordanBarrZurich86?

If not, I don't blame you, I would be cheering The status quo as much as possible also if I were a non-American tax adviser advising Americans.
No I am not a US citizen, and currently, the organisation I work within does not deal with a lot of the FATCA issues, aside from Form 8938.

Likewise, we are not paid by individuals, but by their employers, so there is no monetary gain for me trumpeting these issues to speak. As I have said, I am not necessarily a fan of US tax law, I certainly think it is unfair a lot of the time, but it is what it is.

It is my job to understand it, and for those that choose to be compliant, assist them in doing so. Whether that be in the capacity of the OVDI, silent disclosures, or assisting people for Form 8938 then thats what I am paid to do.

I am merely trying to put the points across from a neutral stand point, rather than from the disgruntled, poor me I am American and life is so unfair stand point.

Certainly, the additional compliance means people like myself have additional things to learn and accordingly, additional work to bill, but that is no different to anyone elses trade where the necessity requires it.

Its not like we have a choice or say in the matter. Or, would it be professional to say, yeah screw FATCA, screw the IRS, dont file, hide your income. Doesn't make the matter go away does it?
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  #55  
Old 07.09.2012, 18:58
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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You have got to be having a cold bean bath, right?

I quoted someone who said "all humans are now denied banking services"....because of this FATCA issue, and I corrected them in saying not all humans, just Americans, as in.......ahhh forget it
I wouldn't say that it's a "correction" because it doesn't change my argument. It is still wrong to deny all "Humans" or "Americans" banking services simply because some individuals are engaged in criminal activity. One needs to police the individuals who do crime rather than committing crime against the collective group which is mostly innocent.
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  #56  
Old 07.09.2012, 19:06
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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I am merely trying to put the points across from a neutral stand point, rather than from the disgruntled, poor me I am American and life is so unfair stand point.
With this, are you referring to the US government? I can certainly understand that the US government is currently feeling this way, feeling hopelessly lost and frustrated in the mess it has created for itself. The best advice one can give in such a situation, is that the US government can solve its problems once it learns to recognize them.

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screw FATCA, screw the IRS, dont file, hide your income. Doesn't make the matter go away does it?
This must be coming from the States, because I've never heard this from anyone abroad.
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  #57  
Old 07.09.2012, 19:12
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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...The best advice one can give in such a situation, is that the US government can solve its problems once it learns to recognize them....
How does the saying go? Truer words were never spoken...
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  #58  
Old 07.09.2012, 19:35
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Currently, yes, but if the IRS came up with some new rule which resulted in US banks refusing to provide Americans with banking services, then the discussion would be focused on US federal crimes being performed against US citizens.

If America still insists that it must double-tax the already taxed, then it must attempt to do so without causing the innocent to be harmed. This doesn't seem to be possible. Currently, FATCA simply means that the US insists on causing unnecessary harm to the innocent living outside of US jurisdiction, but that defeats the pro-double-tax argument. Double-taxing the same income of those denied banking services, is something the Mafia might do:

"The Mafia tax affects almost every business on the island of Sicily"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6976779.stm

Normally, one would think that Sicilian businesses were only taxed by the Italian government, given that neither the Mafia nor America is not the Sicilian government. Yet, some Sicilians are not only double-taxed by the Mafia, but by America too and now their banks are going to deny them banking services since they are taxed by the Mafia or America, regardless of Italian government tax collection efforts. Is this why Italy has so much debt?

Italy National Debt Clock
http://nationaldebtclocks.com/italy.htm
I am not following all of this.

Double tax? You mean taxing the same income twice? Or you mean it's unfair one country has a higher tax rate than the other and even if you move to a lower tax country you still have to make up the difference ? There is a difference
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Old 07.09.2012, 19:43
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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I wouldn't say that it's a "correction" because it doesn't change my argument. It is still wrong to deny all "Humans" or "Americans" banking services simply because some individuals are engaged in criminal activity. One needs to police the individuals who do crime rather than committing crime against the collective group which is mostly innocent.
Well this is the point you continually keep missing.

No one is denying services but the banks themselves, and not all of them are anyway, so it's not a case of all Americans, or all banks, but a case of fewer options.

FATCA is an attempt at policing US taxpayers to effectively mitigate tax evaders as it were, and as has become apparent, this has had a ripple effect on the innocent majority, one would assume this will be addressed in due course. But, there are still banking options so it's not as if there is no where to turn.
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Old 07.09.2012, 19:45
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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With this, are you referring to the US government? I can certainly understand that the US government is currently feeling this way, feeling hopelessly lost and frustrated in the mess it has created for itself. The best advice one can give in such a situation, is that the US government can solve its problems once it learns to recognize them.



This must be coming from the States, because I've never heard this from anyone abroad.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Is the US government feeling hopeless etc? I have no idea, nor do I care a great deal.

Perhaps you are right, not my jurisdiction.

I would argue they probably feel there recent acquisition of a couple billion $'s in unpaid taxes has been a relative success, and obviously feel these new implementation of banking laws will help catch the cheats going forward, but who am I to comment on their policy and laws. I am just paid to understand how they are implemented and what an American tax payer has to do to stay out of trouble.
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