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  #61  
Old 07.09.2012, 19:58
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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I am not following all of this.

Double tax? You mean taxing the same income twice? Or you mean it's unfair one country has a higher tax rate than the other and even if you move to a lower tax country you still have to make up the difference ? There is a difference
On double taxation, I mean what wiki writes:

Double taxation is the levying of tax by two or more jurisdictions on the same declared income (in the case of income taxes), asset (in the case of capital taxes), or financial transaction (in the case of sales taxes).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_taxation


If you feel that wiki is wrong on this, then feel free to recommend a change.
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  #62  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:04
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

Shouldn't this FUBAR stuff be spun off into another thread? Are we not totally OT at this point?
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  #63  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:09
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Well this is the point you continually keep missing.

No one is denying services but the banks themselves, and not all of them are anyway, so it's not a case of all Americans, or all banks, but a case of fewer options.
Banks are not acting on their own, but in response to US pressure. Thus, the US government is guilty of violating US federal laws. The banks would not deny US persons if the US government didn't require such as an alternative to FATCA.

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FATCA is an attempt at policing US taxpayers to effectively mitigate tax evaders as it were, and as has become apparent, this has had a ripple effect on the innocent majority, one would assume this will be addressed in due course. But, there are still banking options so it's not as if there is no where to turn.
US persons certainly can shop at the Mafia bank, which is booming while the US government is pressuring banks to close the accounts of innocent individuals. Yet, how does this "effectively mitigate tax evaders"?

Organized crime is booming. Mafia is the largest "bank" in Italy.
http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Mafia-...le5179561.html

According to the latest press, money is increasingly being washed in New York and London, not just the Caribbean:

Die Einnahmen des organisierten Verbrechens würden somit immer häufiger nicht nur in Steueroasen in der Karibik, sondern auch in Banken in London und in New York gewaschen.
http://wirtschaftsblatt.at/home/nach...rise-in-Europa

So, why does the US need for innocent US persons to be kicked out of banks while the growing Mafia bank is welcoming them with open arms?

Last edited by SwissPinoy; 07.09.2012 at 20:28.
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  #64  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:24
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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On double taxation, I mean what wiki writes:

Double taxation is the levying of tax by two or more jurisdictions on the same declared income (in the case of income taxes), asset (in the case of capital taxes), or financial transaction (in the case of sales taxes).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_taxation


If you feel that wiki is wrong on this, then feel free to recommend a change.
Well one thing lawyers, tax professionals or other never refer to is wiki.

But in anycase, the broad definition of what you have pasted is fine with me. As long as you understand that when an American is taxed on worldwide income, and that income has been taxed in another country where they reside at say 20%, then as an American citizen one still owes the US government the residual 15% in the case of a 35% bracket payer.

Just because one can find a way of paying lower taxes in another country, they still owe the difference to the US I am afraid.

Ok, there are few additional level of complexities but that's the jist.
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  #65  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:29
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Banks are not acting on their own, but in response to US pressure. Thus, the US government is guilty of violating US federal laws. The banks would not deny US persons if the US government didn't require such as an alternative to FATCA.

US persons certainly can shop at the Mafia bank, which is booming while the US government is pressuring banks to close the accounts of innocent individuals. Yet, how does this "effectively mitigate tax evaders"?

Organized crime is booming. Mafia is the largest "bank" in Italy.
http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Mafia-...le5179561.html
Well none of my US friends, bankers, company owners etc have mentioned this to me. I am not aware of any bank who has been pressured by the US to deny US customers. I am aware of banks who have had large fines for assisting tax evaders, and who do not want to deal with all the additional compliance in having an American customer, and I am aware of banks who don't mind the additional compliance.

I have no interest or comment on your mafia findings. Again, not my jurisdiction.
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  #66  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:35
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Well one thing lawyers, tax professionals or other never refer to is wiki.
That's their choice, but it doesn't make a difference on some issues:

A taxation principle referring to income taxes that are paid twice on the same source of earned income.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double_taxation.asp

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But in anycase, the broad definition of what you have pasted is fine with me. As long as you understand that when an American is taxed on worldwide income, and that income has been taxed in another country where they reside at say 20%, then as an American citizen one still owes the US government the residual 15% in the case of a 35% bracket payer.

Just because one can find a way of paying lower taxes in another country, they still owe the difference to the US I am afraid.

Ok, there are few additional level of complexities but that's the jist.
I came to Switzerland to earn money so that I would have the opportunity to pay taxes, but I can understand that some stateside Americans may come to you seeking a means of paying less taxes.
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  #67  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:44
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Well none of my US friends, bankers, company owners etc have mentioned this to me. I am not aware of any bank who has been pressured by the US to deny US customers.
That sounds as if US friends, bankers, company owners never heard of FATCA, don't know that it exists and took no action in response to such, meaning that they don't refuse US persons banking services. Yet, such doesn't appear to be the case.
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  #68  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:45
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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That's their choice, but it doesn't make a difference on some issues:

A taxation principle referring to income taxes that are paid twice on the same source of earned income.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double_taxation.asp



I came to Switzerland to earn money so that I would have the opportunity to pay taxes, but I can understand that some stateside Americans may come to you seeking a means of paying less taxes.
Nope, I have no US based clients
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  #69  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:49
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Nope, I have no US based clients
Sounds like the US government is chasing the wrong goat in the wrong country when it should be paying more attention to money laundering in New York City!
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  #70  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:49
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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That sounds as if US friends, bankers, company owners never heard of FATCA, don't know that it exists and took no action in response to such, meaning that they don't refuse US persons banking services. Yet, such doesn't appear to be the case.
No it means my colleagues and old colleagues, friends etc still have bank accounts in Switzerland, still have rental accounts, still run their businesses be it US taxes, or asset wealth management for US citizens, and that those in banks have not said the US government have made them turn away US customers.
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  #71  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:52
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Sounds like the US government is chasing the wrong goat in the wrong country when it should be paying more attention to money laundering in New York City!
Perhaps, I have no idea.

There is a whistle blower hotline if you are that passionate about it. I just go in to work, do my hours, go home, live my life and enjoy the forum from time to time, chiming in on topics I am interested in or have an understanding of.
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  #72  
Old 07.09.2012, 20:52
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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No it means my colleagues and old colleagues, friends etc still have bank accounts in Switzerland, still have rental accounts, still run their businesses be it US taxes, or asset wealth management for US citizens, and that those in banks have not said the US government have made them turn away US customers.
Then why are US customers being turned away given that such demonstrates that there is absolutely no need for such?
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  #73  
Old 07.09.2012, 21:06
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Perhaps, I have no idea.

There is a whistle blower hotline if you are that passionate about it. I just go in to work, do my hours, go home, live my life and enjoy the forum from time to time, chiming in on topics I am interested in or have an understanding of.
I would be glad to if I could, but unfortunately, I get my information on the Mafia from the press.
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  #74  
Old 07.09.2012, 21:07
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Then why are US customers being turned away given that such demonstrates that there is absolutely no need for such?
Guess they are not using the same banks. Remember, there are options, just less of them.
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  #75  
Old 07.09.2012, 21:08
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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I would be glad to if I could, but unfortunately, I get my information on the Mafia from the press.
Hahahaha ok
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  #76  
Old 07.09.2012, 21:33
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Guess they are not using the same banks. Remember, there are options, just less of them.
Thus, the US government pressures banks to either finance the heavy cost of being FATCA complaint or to reject US persons. Thus, FATCA is a violation of US federal laws since it is a crime to deny a person a mortgage based on their national origin.

Housing discrimination based on your race, color, national origin, religion, sex, family status, or disability is illegal by federal law. If you have been trying to buy or rent a home or apartment and you believe your rights have been violated, you can file a fair housing complaint.
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?...discrimination

To be complaint with US laws, the US government cannot pressure banks to deny services to US persons based on national origin.
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  #77  
Old 08.09.2012, 23:01
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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No I am not a US citizen, and currently, the organisation I work within does not deal with a lot of the FATCA issues, aside from Form 8938.
Form 8938 is a major FATCA issue. Those dealing with "other FATCA issues" (mainly the bank-side) are likely FATCA compliance consultants, and I bet they are also cheering this new legislation cause they will have a lot of hours to bill banks.

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Likewise, we are not paid by individuals, but by their employers, so there is no monetary gain for me trumpeting these issues to speak. As I have said, I am not necessarily a fan of US tax law, I certainly think it is unfair a lot of the time, but it is what it is.
You are a cost to organizations either way and you are helping to make American expats uncompetitive since these employers must bear the costs associated with US tax law. If US tax law were only residence-based, you would probably be unhappy as you would see a decline in revenues.

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It is my job to understand it, and for those that choose to be compliant, assist them in doing so. Whether that be in the capacity of the OVDI, silent disclosures, or assisting people for Form 8938 then thats what I am paid to do.
That certainly is your job and you certainly would not be doing that were the US tax system for expats not confiscatory as it is. Tell me you would refuse the nice cash stream coming from US Expat tax advisory.

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I am merely trying to put the points across from a neutral stand point, rather than from the disgruntled, poor me I am American and life is so unfair stand point.
Very hard for you to argue from a neutral position since you have a vested financial interest in the current US tax system.

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Certainly, the additional compliance means people like myself have additional things to learn and accordingly, additional work to bill, but that is no different to anyone elses trade where the necessity requires it.
Fully agree, I would do the samething if I were you. Who would want to have less hours to bill?

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Its not like we have a choice or say in the matter. Or, would it be professional to say, yeah screw FATCA, screw the IRS, dont file, hide your income. Doesn't make the matter go away does it?
We have a choice for sure, but not in the way you phrased it.

Some people try to bring to light the adverse consequences that the US tax system generates.

Some people renounce nationality.

Some people just don't have the credibility to take an honest moral stance in the debate because they profit from the current law.
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  #78  
Old 08.09.2012, 23:17
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Thus, the US government pressures banks to either finance the heavy cost of being FATCA complaint or to reject US persons. Thus, FATCA is a violation of US federal laws since it is a crime to deny a person a mortgage based on their national origin.

Housing discrimination based on your race, color, national origin, religion, sex, family status, or disability is illegal by federal law. If you have been trying to buy or rent a home or apartment and you believe your rights have been violated, you can file a fair housing complaint.
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?...discrimination

To be complaint with US laws, the US government cannot pressure banks to deny services to US persons based on national origin.
Total nonsense.

The US government isn't pressuring banks to deny mortgages, they are pressuring banks to break Swiss law!

And the banks are basically telling them to off.

If I had a company and a foreign entity started telling me what to do, I'd do the same.

Tom
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  #79  
Old 08.09.2012, 23:37
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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Total nonsense.

The US government isn't pressuring banks to deny mortgages, they are pressuring banks to break Swiss law!

And the banks are basically telling them to off.

If I had a company and a foreign entity started telling me what to do, I'd do the same.

Tom
Not only are they pressuring banks to break Swiss Law, but they are also pressuring banks to do an IRS job and if Swiss Banks refuse, they get massive fines in the form of 30% withholding tax on their US-sourced income.

That would be characterized as outsourcing one's job and extorting the other side to do it by transferring all risks, costs and penalties to them.

I would characterize this behaviour as quasi-mafia.
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Old 09.09.2012, 01:45
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Re: Couldn't open a Mietkaution (Rent Deposit) account, Thanks FATCA

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[/URL]

I suppose that was a rhetorical question
I would think so unless Runderwo has a better answer. People parrot about tax evasion when talking about Fatca/ Fbar because thats obviously the reasoning behind them.

Whether they are atrocious laws or not doesn't change the philosophy behind the introduction but I am open to other answers
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