Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 11.05.2017, 09:00
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,150
Groaned at 2,042 Times in 1,527 Posts
Thanked 34,705 Times in 16,486 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
If the will has to be executed in Switzerland, what is the point of Heimatrecht?
That it is executed according to US law, and not Swiss law.

It is still executed in Switzerland, but only for assets in Switzerland.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 11.05.2017, 09:58
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,126
Groaned at 68 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 10,369 Times in 4,241 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
Wait wait wait...

Are you saying that even though I have claimed Heimatrecht that the will must be executed in Switzerland? If so, then I've gone about this all wrong. There is no one in Switzerland I could trust to execute my will according to my wishes.

I had thought that Heimatrecht meant that, essentially, it all bounces back to my homeland. My lawyers and executors and all those who need to deal with the estate are all in the US; I've purposely not involved Swiss lawyers thinking that A.) the chance of me shuffling off this mortal coil while still a Swiss resident are small so why involve yet another layer of expensive lawyers when B.), it all reverts back to the US anyway.

If the will has to be executed in Switzerland, what is the point of Heimatrecht?
As I understand it, the Estate in Switzerland will need someone in Switzerland to execute the will according to Swiss law.

The Swiss law of succession (= who gets what) is the part you exclude by claiming Heimatrecht. This is what enables you to get away with no Pflichtteile, and leave your assets to whomsoever you will (as far as this is allowed in your home country).

Even so, Swiss law still applies to the procedures of distributing the Estate (= how it is done), e.g. which documents are required at the bank, at the municipal offices, who may sign for what, who is in charge, how any assets are transferred back to the US if, indeed, that is what the heirs want done.

I was advised that, regardless of anyone claiming Heimatrecht or not, one still needs an agent in Switzerland. The foreign heir may fly in and do all this, as long as they are competent, administratively and linquistically, to fulfil the legally required procedures. Or else one should appoint someone in Switzerland to do this.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #43  
Old 11.05.2017, 11:08
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,277
Groaned at 95 Times in 86 Posts
Thanked 18,755 Times in 8,319 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
If the will has to be executed in Switzerland, what is the point of Heimatrecht?
I properly used the term "executed" in the wrong way.

The base how it is executed and that you can claim Heimatrecht is in the IPRG starting at Art. 90 https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a90
It lies out the foundation how things are executed. As long as this base does not change, and there is zero notion to change it, but you never know, all is good.

What I meant is that if there is a dispute against your will from one of your heirs or potential heirs they could object at your local district court in Switzerland. It will be complicated for them, as they need a lawyer knowledgeable in Swiss as well as the foreign law.

It makes sense, or actually is even necessary, to specify the actual state in case of U.S. citizen as inheritance law is not federal law and one of your heirs, like your husband, my argue Heimatrecht means Louisiana inheritance law because you are LSU alumni, or the argue that just "U.S. Heimatrecht" is too unspecific and full Swiss law should apply.

Also the Swiss IPRG Art. 92 Abs. 2 says:
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a92
Quote:
Die Durchführung der einzelnen Massnahmen richtet sich nach dem Recht am Ort der zuständigen Behörde. Diesem Recht unterstehen namentlich die sichernden Massnahmen und die Nachlassabwicklung mit Einschluss der Willensvollstreckung.
Art. 69
Quote:
1 Ausländische Entscheidungen, Massnahmen und Urkunden, die den Nachlass betreffen, sowie Rechte aus einem im Ausland eröffneten Nachlass werden in der Schweiz anerkannt:

a. wenn sie im Staat des letzten Wohnsitzes des Erblassers oder im Staat, dessen Recht er gewählt hat, getroffen, ausgestellt oder festgestellt worden sind oder wenn sie in einem dieser Staaten anerkannt werden, oder
This means how things are done (see doropfiz above), is governed by the procedural law of the place responsible for the estate and Switzerland will fully accept them. You have to check if your states probate code accepts this responsibility or shift the responsibility back to the place of last residence.

Also the IPRG states in Art. 98 and 99 that Swiss courts are responsible for real estates and other stuff which are physically in Switzerland. The Swiss court will decide based on your will, on your chosen inheritance law, but using Swiss court practice.

As long as no heir or potential heir objects all is fine and good. Even with any pure Swiss will. The authorities will AFAIK never object to a will.
If they object they will face extra hurdles and problems. To further deter you heirs from objection you may add that anyone who objects is excluded from the will.
__________________
"Okay, I just hope we don't wake up on Mars or something surrounded by millions of little squashy guys."
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 11.05.2017, 14:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SZ
Posts: 10,489
Groaned at 29 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 24,174 Times in 7,599 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Thanks, ASITUS - your explanation is far more comprehensive (and comprehensible!) than what I got from the (Swiss) lawyer we consulted years ago, and the Gemeinde notary we spoke with recently.

I hope this doesn't mean going back to the drawing board, though...


Lots of work to ensure that the Muttley Crew spend their remaining days in the style they have become accustomed to, should I one day not be there in my capacity as Chief Can Opener...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #45  
Old 12.05.2017, 15:13
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Baselland
Posts: 657
Groaned at 19 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 454 Times in 288 Posts
spalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

If someone passes away without a Swiss testament (or it is not accepted as valid) what is used for the value of a property? Is it the Verkehrswert market value or the Steuerwerte (Katasterwerte) taxable value for building and land?
In my case the Steuerwerte are much, much less than the Verkehrswert and would make a significantly large difference to the Plichtteile compulsory parts.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank spalebärg for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 12.05.2017, 15:32
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,150
Groaned at 2,042 Times in 1,527 Posts
Thanked 34,705 Times in 16,486 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
If someone passes away without a Swiss testament (or it is not accepted as valid) what is used for the value of a property?
It will be valued, and the valuation MUST be accepted by all heirs.

If not, repeat until it is.

Even then, the asset may have to be sold first, and the proceeds divided according to the inheritance certificate.

BTDT.

Case in point:

MIL died in 2011, leaving a house in Switzerland, various artworks, and another house in Italy.

House in Switzerland was valued, but one of the heirs did not accept the valuation (1M5), so it was re-valued (1M68), which was accepted, but the house was sold for 1M8, and that was the value that was divided by law.

Artwork and some other stuff was estimated at 800K, accepted by all, and everyone chose what they wanted in the correct proportion (I had made up an excel table to do the calculations).

Property in Italy is still not divided 5 1/2 years on, as one of the heirs died a couple weeks before the Italian succession was completed, so back to square one, i.e. another couple years before the property can be sold or otherwise divided.

Tom

Last edited by st2lemans; 12.05.2017 at 15:49.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #47  
Old 12.05.2017, 17:06
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Baselland
Posts: 657
Groaned at 19 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 454 Times in 288 Posts
spalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
It will be valued, and the valuation MUST be accepted by all heirs.

If not, repeat until it is.

Even then, the asset may have to be sold first, and the proceeds divided according to the inheritance certificate.

BTDT.

Case in point:

MIL died in 2011, leaving a house in Switzerland, various artworks, and another house in Italy.

House in Switzerland was valued, but one of the heirs did not accept the valuation (1M5), so it was re-valued (1M68), which was accepted, but the house was sold for 1M8, and that was the value that was divided by law.

Artwork and some other stuff was estimated at 800K, accepted by all, and everyone chose what they wanted in the correct proportion (I had made up an excel table to do the calculations).

Property in Italy is still not divided 5 1/2 years on, as one of the heirs died a couple weeks before the Italian succession was completed, so back to square one, i.e. another couple years before the property can be sold or otherwise divided.

Tom
In my case if the wife dies before I do I would keep the flat for as long as I'm fit. Therefore an acceptable valuation would be required for arriving at the Pflichtteile compulsory parts to pay off her siblings. PS. Only one of 3 siblings lives in CH; the others in Austria.
If I die before the wife, with my will she would not need to pay any Pflichtteile. However, due to encroaching dementia keeping the flat most probably would be impractical for her.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12.05.2017, 17:11
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,806
Groaned at 227 Times in 191 Posts
Thanked 22,512 Times in 9,559 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
In my case if the wife dies before I do I would keep the flat for as long as I'm fit. Therefore an acceptable valuation would be required for arriving at the Pflichtteile compulsory parts to pay off her siblings.
If I die before the wife, with my will she would not need to pay any Pflichtteile. However, due to encroaching dementia keeping the flat most probably would be impractical for her.
There is a difference between keeping a flat and maintaining ownership of it. I understand that you can under certain conditions be unevicatble even if physical ownership passes to somebody else under the terms of a will. If they want to take posession they have to wait until you either vacate voluntarily or die.

I know an old lady who has outlived all of her inheritors and several of their children too.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #49  
Old 12.05.2017, 17:39
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,150
Groaned at 2,042 Times in 1,527 Posts
Thanked 34,705 Times in 16,486 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
There is a difference between keeping a flat and maintaining ownership of it. I understand that you can under certain conditions be unevicatble even if physical ownership passes to somebody else under the terms of a will. If they want to take posession they have to wait until you either vacate voluntarily or die.
That's written into our deed.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #50  
Old 12.05.2017, 18:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Baselland
Posts: 657
Groaned at 19 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 454 Times in 288 Posts
spalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
That's written into our deed.

Tom
In hand-written Swiss wills, as in our case without children, we can 100% freely decide who gets our inheritance.
In my wife's will I get it all, if she dies first.
In my will she gets it all, if I die first.
When both of us are gone then whoever we leave it to get their parts.

Problem now is that she appears to be going down with dementia.
The question then would be, was she of sound mind at the time of making the will. If I take her to a doctor now although I am fairly certain she is of sound mind, the doctor may not be willing to certify that.
In that case, if she dies before me, her siblings can contest her will and most probably I would have to pay them off (which I can do fairly easily).

On the other hand if I die first she might well have to go into a care home. That takes money which would mean the flat would have to be sold.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 12.05.2017, 18:36
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,277
Groaned at 95 Times in 86 Posts
Thanked 18,755 Times in 8,319 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
In my case if the wife dies before I do I would keep the flat for as long as I'm fit. Therefore an acceptable valuation would be required for arriving at the Pflichtteile compulsory parts to pay off her siblings. PS. Only one of 3 siblings lives in CH; the others in Austria.
If I die before the wife, with my will she would not need to pay any Pflichtteile. However, due to encroaching dementia keeping the flat most probably would be impractical for her.
Siblings have a Pflichtteil of 0%.
Only: Partner, offspring, and parents if there is no offspring have a right to a Pflichtteil. A Pflichtteil is on request only.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12.05.2017, 19:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Baselland
Posts: 657
Groaned at 19 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 454 Times in 288 Posts
spalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond reputespalebärg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What happens to assets after death?

Quote:
View Post
Siblings have a Pflichtteil of 0%.
Only: Partner, offspring, and parents if there is no offspring have a right to a Pflichtteil. A Pflichtteil is on request only.
Correct! I should have said the Erbteil inheritance due to the parents. Since we are in our 70's the parents are all dead so the inheritance due to them will go to their other children, that is my wife's siblings (or if they are also dead to their children).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank spalebärg for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
assets, bank account, death




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cablecom 3 month try and buy, what happens after 3 months? ctkoch TV/internet/telephone 5 21.10.2011 13:51
Changing jobs - what happens to permits? Christianinvest Permits/visas/government 4 10.03.2011 23:30
Non EU married to an EU in Zürich, What happens after Divorce? guidette Family matters/health 6 02.03.2010 10:45
What happens after the tax return is submitted - is it complicated? kodokan Finance/banking/taxation 3 26.02.2010 01:32
What happens after reporting to Kanton police? PoliticalAsylumSeeker Daily life 1 13.04.2008 17:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0