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  #41  
Old 04.12.2012, 18:53
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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I am US/British citizen living in Switzerland. . And as fatmanfilms pointed out, it's not just where you reside, it's also your nationality/ancestry too. Both my parents were British.
i think you need to look at this a little more clearly. its not about ancestry nationality exactly but what these things add up to

Simple question you need to ask yourself, where are you tax resident and where have you been tax resident for the last 2 years?

there is no minimum as the banks will take it automatically even if its a few pence.
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  #42  
Old 04.12.2012, 19:13
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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From http://www.kpmg.com/uk/en/services/t...agreement.aspx

In other words, if you live and work here, you're fine.
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Exactly it's for UK residents with a Swiss bank account .
No, it's not. It's for UK tax residents which, as you pointed out fatmanfilms, is a different thing entirely to just living in the UK. The HMRC document that ColonelBoris links to also says it is "to inform UK taxpayers", not UK residents. Just because you live and work in Switzerland doesn't mean you're fine. If, like me, you pay tax in the UK as well as here then this agreement must apply to you. If I'm understanding this wrong, then could someone please explain where the error is?

And I have been a tax resident in both countries for the past 13 years, monkeynut. Luckily very little tax in the UK, but we have had to fill in the forms because we are directors of a dormant UK company.
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  #43  
Old 04.12.2012, 19:21
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

As far as I can make out from the actual agreement, the amounts they want witholding tax on are from investments, dividends, interest and 'other' income (which sems to be variations on the above). Oddly, it doesn't mention income from salary. I also saw something about double taxation treaties, so I guess if you're all square with Swiss tax, then it should be OK.
Hopefully.
Hmm.
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  #44  
Old 04.12.2012, 19:44
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

I should state that even I wouldn't follow my own financial advice.
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  #45  
Old 04.12.2012, 19:53
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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If I'm understanding this wrong, then could someone please explain where the error is?
Sure. "UK Tax Resident" is the same as "UK resident". However, when they start using "UK tax payer" it gets vague. I'm 99% convinced, however, that it's just words and this doesn't apply to people who aren't UK resident whether or not you pay tax there (as a tourist who buys something is paying VAT, which is a tax).
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  #46  
Old 04.12.2012, 20:16
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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No, it's not. It's for UK tax residents which, as you pointed out fatmanfilms, is a different thing entirely to just living in the UK. The HMRC document that ColonelBoris links to also says it is "to inform UK taxpayers", not UK residents. Just because you live and work in Switzerland doesn't mean you're fine. If, like me, you pay tax in the UK as well as here then this agreement must apply to you. If I'm understanding this wrong, then could someone please explain where the error is?

And I have been a tax resident in both countries for the past 13 years, monkeynut. Luckily very little tax in the UK, but we have had to fill in the forms because we are directors of a dormant UK company.
If you live in the UK , depending on your domicile of origin, you will be liable to tax on 1 of the following ways:-

1) A Non Dom UK resident is liable to tax on UK income & UK capital gains only for the first 12 years of residency , then can elect to pay tax on world wide income per normal or pay a Non Dom surcharge of 30k/50k.

2) Anybody living in the UK who was born, or whose father was born in the UK, or whose father was UK domiciled will pay tax on world wide incomes and CAPITA GAINS..

Loosing UK Domicile is very difficult, the revenue argued that someone who had been away for 20 years was still domiciled as he said in a post card 'he missed the UK'
A few Wealthy people who live outside the UK have never left for tax purposes, 'UK TAX PAYERS' so those people will also be under the microscope . However as Switzerland believes if they are registered here they are Swiss residents, they won't get snitched on yet.....
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  #47  
Old 04.12.2012, 21:58
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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No, it's not. It's for UK tax residents which, as you pointed out fatmanfilms, is a different thing entirely to just living in the UK. The HMRC document that ColonelBoris links to also says it is "to inform UK taxpayers", not UK residents. Just because you live and work in Switzerland doesn't mean you're fine. If, like me, you pay tax in the UK as well as here then this agreement must apply to you. If I'm understanding this wrong, then could someone please explain where the error is?

And I have been a tax resident in both countries for the past 13 years, monkeynut. Luckily very little tax in the UK, but we have had to fill in the forms because we are directors of a dormant UK company.
I fill out a UK tax return because of UK property and formerly UK directorships, but I am "not resident and not ordinarily resident" as far as HMRC is concerned (and I fill out the relevant pages to that effect). Just filling out a tax return and paying some tax in the UK does not automatically make you subject to this regulation. "UK taxpayer" is not a formal status under UK tax law that I know.
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  #48  
Old 04.12.2012, 22:02
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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If you live in the UK , depending on your domicile of origin, you will be liable to tax on 1 of the following ways:-

1) A Non Dom UK resident is liable to tax on UK income & UK capital gains only for the first 12 years of residency , then can elect to pay tax on world wide income per normal or pay a Non Dom surcharge of 30k/50k.

2) Anybody living in the UK who was born, or whose father was born in the UK, or whose father was UK domiciled will pay tax on world wide incomes and CAPITA GAINS..

Loosing UK Domicile is very difficult, the revenue argued that someone who had been away for 20 years was still domiciled as he said in a post card 'he missed the UK'
A few Wealthy people who live outside the UK have never left for tax purposes, 'UK TAX PAYERS' so those people will also be under the microscope . However as Switzerland believes if they are registered here they are Swiss residents, they won't get snitched on yet.....
Domicile is not relevant to the application of this rule, residence is. As you say domicile is mainly relevant for inheritance tax scope and to decide if you can benefit from the non-dom rules.
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  #49  
Old 04.12.2012, 22:12
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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Domicile is not relevant to the application of this rule, residence is. As you say domicile is mainly relevant for inheritance tax scope and to decide if you can benefit from the non-dom rules.
Domicile is relevant as you can be UK resident but Non Domicile potentially so out of the scope of the tax.
It's really not clear cut in future what effect domicile will have, the new Stat. declaration seems to include IHT as well....

If your UK Domicile, hold UK directorships, have substantial assets in the UK, you probably never left the UK at all. From April it will be much clearer.
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  #50  
Old 04.12.2012, 23:06
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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Domicile is relevant as you can be UK resident but Non Domicile potentially so out of the scope of the tax.
It's really not clear cut in future what effect domicile will have, the new Stat. declaration seems to include IHT as well....

If your UK Domicile, hold UK directorships, have substantial assets in the UK, you probably never left the UK at all. From April it will be much clearer.
Unlike the OP who is UK resident but not domiciled (but not necessarily non-dom status), my interest in this topic is as a not resident and not ordinarily resident but probably in the view of HMRC a UK domiciled person. As this is the englishforum Switzerland and not the swissforum England lets get to the bottom of what risk there is for UK folk living in Switzerland to be accidentally caught up in this Kafka-esque web.

If I look at the text of the agreement http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/swiss.pdf and in particular the definition of relevant person it seems reasonably clear to me that the rules apply to UK resident individuals. Resident is not capitalized and not defined, so I assume we fall back on the usual HMRC definition? Can you clarify your post in the context of this? Especially what new statutory declaration? And what do you mean by "you probably never left the UK at all"?
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  #51  
Old 04.12.2012, 23:26
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

I suspect they're being deliberately vague in the hope you incriminate yourself. I just worked out the balance in my account was CHF 0 at the end of 2010, 2011 and 2012. I may leave UBS to make a one-off payment of CHF 0 on which they can take their 0.1% cut.
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  #52  
Old 04.12.2012, 23:27
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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Unlike the OP who is UK resident but not domiciled (but not necessarily non-dom status), my interest in this topic is as a not resident and not ordinarily resident but probably in the view of HMRC a UK domiciled person. As this is the englishforum Switzerland and not the swissforum England lets get to the bottom of what risk there is for UK folk living in Switzerland to be accidentally caught up in this Kafka-esque web.

If I look at the text of the agreement http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/swiss.pdf and in particular the definition of relevant person it seems reasonably clear to me that the rules apply to UK resident individuals. Resident is not capitalized and not defined, so I assume we fall back on the usual HMRC definition? Can you clarify your post in the context of this? Especially what new statutory declaration? And what do you mean by "you probably never left the UK at all"?

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/consul...dence_test.htm

Robert Gains Cooper never 'left the UK'
http://taxinstitute.ie/TaxFind/Conte...ILES%5Cc9.html
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  #53  
Old 05.12.2012, 00:06
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

Thanks that is useful. It would be surprising if the final guidance was stricter than the draft guidance. The proposed legislation is more complex than the current rules but seems to offer more certainty. For sure people in marginal situations with significant ties and presence in the UK may need to take more care. Just having rented property, investment assets and a directorship in a dormant company would clearly not of themselves suddenly make you a resident though.
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  #54  
Old 05.12.2012, 00:15
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

Of particular relevance to most are the proposals 3.14 etc about definitive non residence combined with section 4. Full time employees abroad are basically safe. Self employed too. I understand these are drafts but I don't see it being tightened.
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:18
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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Of particular relevance to most are the proposals 3.14 etc about definitive non residence combined with section 4. Full time employees abroad are basically safe. Self employed too. I understand these are drafts but I don't see it being tightened.
There is an updated version that becomes law from next tax year however its NOT retrospective.
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:53
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

Hello,

I found this link to english faqs regarding this whole question, so hopefully this helps to clear up a bit of confusion, although I'm still left with the feeling that the legislation has been put together with the big fish in mind, rather than any honest minnows.

http://www.swissbanking.org/en/20111...inal-cfr-2.pdf
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Old 05.12.2012, 10:13
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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No, it's not. It's for UK tax residents which, as you pointed out fatmanfilms, is a different thing entirely to just living in the UK. The HMRC document that ColonelBoris links to also says it is "to inform UK taxpayers", not UK residents. Just because you live and work in Switzerland doesn't mean you're fine. If, like me, you pay tax in the UK as well as here then this agreement must apply to you. If I'm understanding this wrong, then could someone please explain where the error is?

And I have been a tax resident in both countries for the past 13 years, monkeynut. Luckily very little tax in the UK, but we have had to fill in the forms because we are directors of a dormant UK company.
you cant be tax resident in two different countries?

Im still think you need to check as you do not need to be filling out the forms purely because you are director on a UK company?? Are you sure you arent confusing this with corporation tax?
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  #58  
Old 05.12.2012, 10:41
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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you cant be tax resident in two different countries?

Im still think you need to check as you do not need to be filling out the forms purely because you are director on a UK company?? Are you sure you arent confusing this with corporation tax?
No, because I do a separate form for the corportion tax. We get sent notices every year from HMRC that we need to do a self-assessment for tax. I would hope that if they didn't want them, they'd tell us and save themselves paperwork and time!
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Old 05.12.2012, 11:03
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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No, because I do a separate form for the corportion tax. We get sent notices every year from HMRC that we need to do a self-assessment for tax. I would hope that if they didn't want them, they'd tell us and save themselves paperwork and time!
you have to tell them that you arent tax resident, this is HMRC we are talking about, being efficient and pro active is not what they are about?
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Old 05.12.2012, 11:18
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Re: Swiss-GB Tax Agreement Bank Charges

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you cant be tax resident in two different countries?
Oh yes you can, I know several people who are.
Leaving the UK's system is not that easy if you don't have a full contract of employment in another country.
I know several Forfait tax payers in CH or also pay tax in the UK. The wanted to buy a property here & needed a B permit to do so, as larger properties are only sold to residents!
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