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Old 29.08.2013, 10:26
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Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

Rules of the thread: No naming names and be careful with links to other sites.

There are a couple of companies who believe all expats in Switzerland earn over 120'000 and need to be "helped" with investments.

Here's some excellent advice should you elect to not hang up on the caller:

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You can all do something about this in CH.... as can Expats in Spain or as I am doing in Germany (step by step, it is a long haul but no-one ever said it would be easy, right?):

Companies often claim on their website and pamphlets that they are regulated in CH by the Poly Reg.

And this is what the Swiss authorities answered to me already on Feb 11th 2011 (and AFAIK, nothing has changed ever since, but you can simply file inquiries with FINMA /SRO PolyReg yourself as Swiss residents, can't you?)

These companies usually have neither an authorization of FINMA nor is affiliated to a self-regulatory organization.

More information about the SROs (including their addresses) is available the FINMA website under the following link: http://www.finma.ch/e/beaufsichtigte/Pages/sro.aspx

So, it is as simple as that: you can continue to moan and bitch - or you can simply do something to protect yourself and other Expats in CH. Whenever you get a call from one of these companies in CH, take note of the date, time and caller/number, get them ideally to send you an email and then report this to FINMA/SRO in CH as a violation. If a couple of such complaints are reported, the Swiss authorities will react, trust me.

I reported misconduct of a company to the Belgium authorities because the company claimed to be acting in Germany on Belgic license/passporting - which was not true as a simple inquiry with the Belgium authorities turned out. i then send them proof of the false claim by the company...and a few months later suddenly the same company claims to reorganize their European business by bailing out from the Belgium market (and consequently lose their offices in Cypurs and Luxemburg, too).

Next step is to nail them in Germany where their offices are also outside of any legal license and in violation of German and EU rules. That may take a few more months, but it is worth it.

Question is: are you up to do a little bit of work, like sending emails etc with complaints about their activities to the Swiss authorities or not? If you don't, then don't complain....

Cheerio
I've taken the liberty to slightly modify the quoted post above - some changes in blue and some bits removed to allow the thread to exist without naming any company. The original Starshollow post may exist here if it's not been removed.

Some have termed this "financial mis-selling" in Switzerland and they're often been referred to as "Financial Advisors on the Prowl". Beware!

In my opinion, you have not requested a call from these people, they are not regulated in Switzerland and you should simply ask yourself this: "what's in it for them?"

Usually more with less risk than is in it for you, that's for sure. Do what I have done and politely refuse to buy anything.
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Old 29.08.2013, 10:45
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

They also have cheeky tactics calling on company lines and presenting themselves as part of "company policy for employees" and they throw few high level names and assure you that your colleagues are taking the same services and offer to "squeeze" you in between meetings happening at YOUR office building. All of this is ultra BS and you should report it to your HR department along with their names and numbers.

These people are criminals, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
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Old 29.08.2013, 12:25
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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... I reported misconduct of a company to the Belgium authorities because the company claimed to be acting in Germany on Belgic license/passporting - which was not true as a simple inquiry with the Belgium authorities turned out. i then send them proof of the false claim by the company...and a few months later suddenly the same company claims to reorganize their European business by bailing out from the Belgium market (and consequently lose their offices in Cypurs and Luxemburg, too).
Sorry for off topic - but as a Belgian, even if my English isn´t exactly perfect, I can´t leave above (common) spelling issues without commenting.

"Belgium" is the country.
"Belgian" is both the adjective and the nationality.

Although "Belgic" sounds similar to the French "Belgique", it doesn´t exist in English.

On topic: Thanks for going through the hassle for all of us!
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Old 29.08.2013, 12:31
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

I feel like im in the middle of a conspiracy theory...

Cloaks and daggers type of thing. . . . Scary music in the background . . .

Interesting threads though! Ta very much
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Old 29.08.2013, 12:32
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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Sorry for off topic - but as a Belgian, even if my English isn´t exactly perfect, I can´t leave above (common) spelling issues without commenting.

"Belgium" is the country.
"Belgian" is both the adjective and the nationality.

Although "Belgic" sounds similar to the French "Belgique", it doesn´t exist in English.

On topic: Thanks for going through the hassle for all of us!
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Old 29.08.2013, 12:41
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

Here's an option for some: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23869462

Summary: a chap sets up a premium rate number for those calling him and makes money out of the telesales callers. Genius!
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Old 29.08.2013, 17:54
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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Sorry for off topic - but as a Belgian, even if my English isn´t exactly perfect, I can´t leave above (common) spelling issues without commenting.

"Belgium" is the country.
"Belgian" is both the adjective and the nationality.

Although "Belgic" sounds similar to the French "Belgique", it doesn´t exist in English.

On topic: Thanks for going through the hassle for all of us!

Oooops...must remember to use autocorrect more in my mail, even if written in the dark of the night...and after a glass or two of red-wine, did I mention that? :-) But I hope for being excused for these spelling mistakes as a native German with whom English is only second language? (actually, English would count as third language, second being Bavarian in which you can simply swear better than in German!)

Cheerio


PS: the German equivalent of EF, Toytown, is always looking quite keenly on what is happening here...you are not without friends and supporters outside CH, guys!
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:06
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

Genuinely interested, not trying to pick a fight....

Why are these salesmen any more "criminal" than anybody else selling something and talking up the product? One can choose to buy or not, and i assume that the products they sell have accurate and compliant factsheets?
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:14
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

Some info from FINMA for you guys:

Quote:
Versicherungsvermittler

Registrierung von Versicherungsvermittlern

Versicherungsvermittler sind Personen, die im Interesse von Versicherungsunternehmen oder anderen Personen Versicherungsverträge anbieten oder abschliessen. Kernelement der Regulierung ist neben den verschärften Informationspflichten ein zentrales Register. Für ungebundene Versicherungsvermittler (Makler und Broker) ist der Registereintrag obligatorisch und zwar sowohl für juristische als auch für natürliche Personen. Alle übrigen Versicherungsvermittler (Kundenbetreuer im Auftrag von Versicherungsgesellschaften) haben das Recht, sich ins Register eintragen zu lassen. Alle eingetragenen Versicherungsvermittler müssen persönlichen, fachlichen und finanziellen Erfordernissen genügen. Die Anmeldung erfolgt elektronisch über das Vermittlerportal.

https://www.finma.ch/d/beaufsichtigt...ermittler.aspx

So, those IFA companies targetting Expats in CH (and elsewhere) always have as one of their main cash cows either pension plans based on a life assurance wrapper or other investments (bond wrappers for QROPS transfers for instance) which alway come with one form or another of a life insurance umbrella for taxation reasons. Because within a life insurance plan usually profits are not realized and taxation of capital gains can be defered ti later in an entirely legal way.

that means, however, that any offering of the typical pension plans from like Generali Vision or Hansard or what not ( soon probably they'll offer more the plans from STM... a company in which the owner of the CTMNBN has a decent share according to this: http://www.international-adviser.com...e-products-biz ) requires registration and license in CH as described by the FINMA above. You can check the online registry and find out yourself if either the insurance intermediary/broker who offers this or the life insurance itself are duly licensed to do what they do in CH.

http://register.vermittleraufsicht.c...ch.aspx?lng=de
-- I at least can currently not find that the CTMNBN is listed there...can you?

If not, take notes, copies or - if that is legally allowed in CH - record calls where they offer this and bring them to the attention of the CH authorities. They will then react, trust me.. just check what they did to others who did not play by the rules:

https://www.finma.ch/d/sanktionen/un...n/default.aspx
Quote:
Unbewilligte Institute (Negativliste)

Gegenüber Gesellschaften oder Personen, die ohne entsprechende Bewilligung eine in den Aufsichtsgesetzen genannte bewilligungspflichtige Tätigkeit ausüben, trifft die FINMA die im konkreten Fall angemessenen Anordnungen. Mögliche Massnahmen können bis hin zur Liquidation betroffener Unternehmungen führen. Es kommt allerdings vor, dass die FINMA ihre Abklärungen nicht durchführen und notwendige Massnahmen nicht anordnen oder nicht durchsetzen kann, beispielsweise weil eine Gesellschaft ihre Aktivitäten vom Ausland ausführt oder weil die betroffenen Personen nicht auffindbar sind.
If those companies - after having been reported and then checked out by FINMA - end on these public lists, anyone can quote this in public forums without any chance in hell that these companies can threaten to have these info removed here at EF or elsewhere.

I am sure that similiar mechanism of registring and reporting are available in CH if a company or single IFA offers investment advice (for instance those "autocallable notes" a certain company sells like it was the best thing since bread came sliced.... But I am not fully familiar with the CH system, so do a wee bit of research for yourself, ok?

It does really not take much civil courage to do this - for your own protection and the protection of other Expats in CH.

Cheerio
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:18
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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Genuinely interested, not trying to pick a fight....

Why are these salesmen any more "criminal" than anybody else selling something and talking up the product? One can choose to buy or not, and i assume that the products they sell have accurate and compliant factsheets?
Quick and simple answer: because they typically violate all other kind of consumer protection rights, too.
For instance: within the EU (not sure, but think the same applies to CH, too) an advisor HAS to disclose not only his/her legal status but also HAS to disclose the true costs of a recommended insurance product or investment. this is virtually never done by these companies and many a naive/trusting Expat found out later after paying 3 years into a Generali Vision plan for instance that nearly all his money is gone for commission and administrative costs.
I have seen cases in Germany where even signed documents/applications were altered later/forged and clients lost serious amounts of money.

Certain rules and laws are there to protect consumers and to offer a level playing field for advisors. Anyone violating this should be reported and censored or thrown out of the market. And cold-calling is usually only the first step of violating major consumer protection laws...

Cheerio
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:20
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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Genuinely interested, not trying to pick a fight....

Why are these salesmen any more "criminal" than anybody else selling something and talking up the product? One can choose to buy or not, and i assume that the products they sell have accurate and compliant factsheets?
in my opinion, sidestepping the regulatory body is a bad sign. Anyone doing this, no matter who they are, is questionable. They can't be "self-regulating" - that's an oxymoron.

If you cannot use the regulator in your jurisdiction to check their activities then you haver a cross-border issue in the worst case and that sucks for you. Trust me on that....
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:29
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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Genuinely interested, not trying to pick a fight....

Why are these salesmen any more "criminal" than anybody else selling something and talking up the product? One can choose to buy or not, and i assume that the products they sell have accurate and compliant factsheets?
It's not a straight sale, it's a con. They don't present themselves as salesmen. They're posing as qualified financial advisers advising you on your finances (using advisor-style jargon like "regulated", "whole market", "IFA", "fact find", etc.), not saying "I'm a salesman, wanna buy this?". They will say what it takes (whatever, just make it up) to convince you that they are what they seem (experienced/reliable/qualified, etc.) and that the investment is what they make it out to be. They're in it with the investment companies, who are responsible for the factsheets, but it is the "advisers" who interpret those factsheets for the clients and lead them to the sale. A sale that strips thousands out of their savings in commission and fees.

"Buyer beware" won't be an issue if the mark thinks he's dealing with an IFA, not a salesman, and thinks he's a client, not a buyer.
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:36
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

I'm so glad we don't get these calls. Will have to ask OH if he gets them at work...
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:53
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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It's not a straight sale, it's a con. They don't present themselves as salesmen. They're posing as qualified financial advisers advising you on your finances (using advisor-style jargon like "regulated", "whole market", "IFA", "fact find", etc.), not saying "I'm a salesman, wanna buy this?". They will say what it takes (whatever, just make it up) to convince you that they are what they seem (experienced/reliable/qualified, etc.) and that the investment is what they make it out to be. They're in it with the investment companies, who are responsible for the factsheets, but it is the "advisers" who interpret those factsheets for the clients and lead them to the sale. A sale that strips thousands out of their savings in commission and fees.

"Buyer beware" won't be an issue if the mark thinks he's dealing with an IFA, not a salesman, and thinks he's a client, not a buyer.
All IFA's are salesmen. All clients are buyers as well as clients. All FA's, even those without an I, are also salesmen. The most egregious scalpings i have seen attempted have come from big names, not the IFA charging commission.
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Old 29.08.2013, 18:56
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

Hubby got them in Basel and as a finance guy, he told them where to go.
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Old 29.08.2013, 20:14
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

Fortunately we've never had them here.
We're obviously not high earning enough for them.

We had them back in Belgium though and I think they got our details via the mother and baby group somehow. They obviously figured that the expat families were easy targets.
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Old 29.08.2013, 21:11
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

Interesting stories. Myself and my wife received (separately) a cold call the same week from a brazilian number. They guys spoke perfect british english and tried to sell us investment opportunities. I spent some time to understand how he got my number and the answer was: "one of your work colleagues gave us your name & number". Of course this was totally BS.
We were puzzled as we tried to find out how they had our *exact* names and numbers. The only possible explanation we found is that they used somehow ebookers.ch data (name, numbers, and travel frequency from which you can "guess" wealth category).
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Old 29.08.2013, 21:43
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

I had a call tonight about insurance... first ever cold call. Let them rattle on appeared interested lots of ok, right, oh ok, sounds good etc then asked him if he likes wearing womens underwear. . Instant silence ..... what ? was reply.
Asked him a few more questions and got told to f**k off then they hung up.
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Old 29.08.2013, 21:48
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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I had a call tonight about insurance... first ever cold call. Let them rattle on appeared interested lots of ok, right, oh ok, sounds good etc then asked him if he likes wearing womens underwear. . Instant silence ..... what ? was reply.
Asked him a few more questions and got told to f**k off then they hung up.
Am I the only person that finds this quite sad ?
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Old 29.08.2013, 21:54
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Re: Dealing with financial services "cold callers"

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Am I the only person that finds this quite sad ?
Oh dear....
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