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  #201  
Old 17.11.2019, 15:42
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

I know and I understood steve's question very well. But I recommand to EVERYBODY: Don't buy funds! The reason is: Only a few Fundmanger have the vote for the firms inside the fund. Million of people pay - more or less - to give them the power. Unbelievable...



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The OP asked a specific question on how to buy index funds, not single shares.
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Old 17.11.2019, 15:44
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I know and I understood steve's question very well. But I recommand to EVERYBODY: Don't buy funds! The reason is: Only a few Fundmanger have the vote for the firms inside the fund. Million of people pay - more or less - to give them the power. Unbelievable...
And for some people who are not that knowledgeable or do not have the time, funds can be a good solution.
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  #203  
Old 17.11.2019, 16:25
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

It s up to you: I will never give money to a fundmanager or a third person. (just in case, i'm a ex-banker)
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  #204  
Old 17.11.2019, 16:27
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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It s up to you: I will never give money to a fundmanager or a third person. (just in case, i'm a ex-banker)
Up to you, and up to others to decide differently.

Having worked in banking does not automatically make someone an expert, lots depends on the area you worked in.
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Old 17.11.2019, 18:33
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Dear Steve - I recommand you: Don't buy funds! Buy shares directly! Only shares, you like and trust them. It's much cheeper than funds.



Best regards Alain

Dear Alain,

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially when you start handing it out to others as advice. Very few people have the basic skills required to do a good job in stock picking, most people don't have a problem identifying good stock, but make very bad buy and selling decisions. Telling random individual not to buy funds, buy shares instead is about the same as telling them to shoot themselves in the left foot rather than the right foot, they still end up with a sore foot... People will loose just as much money, if not more by taking your so called advice.

You have your own agenda based on you posting history and that is fine up to the point where you start giving it out as advice.
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  #206  
Old 17.11.2019, 18:59
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Dear Alain,

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially when you start handing it out to others as advice. Very few people have the basic skills required to do a good job in stock picking, most people don't have a problem identifying good stock, but make very bad buy and selling decisions. Telling random individual not to buy funds, buy shares instead is about the same as telling them to shoot themselves in the left foot rather than the right foot, they still end up with a sore foot... People will loose just as much money, if not more by taking your so called advice.

You have your own agenda based on you posting history and that is fine up to the point where you start giving it out as advice.
No command to your meaning of my knowledge.

I said my meaning of funds, tell yours.
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Old 17.11.2019, 19:11
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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No command to your meaning of my knowledge.

I said my meaning of funds, tell yours.
This is not a tit for tat game. People disagree with you and have a right to their opinion. So have you.

Still, I think it can be a dangerous route you are proposing.

And what area of banking did you work in then? What banks?
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  #208  
Old 17.11.2019, 20:14
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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No command to your meaning of my knowledge.

I said my meaning of funds, tell yours.
You have not come out with any knowledge other that stating funds are bad, shares are good, it's sound bites not advice.
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  #209  
Old 17.11.2019, 21:01
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I know and I understood steve's question very well. But I recommand to EVERYBODY: Don't buy funds! The reason is: Only a few Fundmanger have the vote for the firms inside the fund. Million of people pay - more or less - to give them the power. Unbelievable...
So your argument in support of stock picking is basically just being to vote at shareholder meetings?


This is a very weak argument for an individual investor. Unless you have millions invested and control a non-neglible portion of the company your vote basically doesn't matter anyway.


Like it or not passive indexing is here to stay and grow, you will be always outnumbered by big index funds and active managers commanding billions of dollars.
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  #210  
Old 17.11.2019, 23:06
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I just pinged my contact there to get more precise answers. Will let you know.

Any update?
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Old 18.11.2019, 08:40
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

Ping
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  #212  
Old 18.11.2019, 08:59
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

If one has the know-how to replicate stock indexes using individual stocks, then that is certainly the cheaper option over the long-term because you knock out fund TERs. However, this requires either a fairly large amount of initial capital or a broker with no minimum fees per trade. Otherwise brokerage fees will kill your chances of returns.

For smaller investors, low-cost ETFs provide a way to buy into a broad portfolio (i.e. and entire index) for just one brokerage fee.

For average Janes/Joe's without much investment know-how or capital, I would venture to say that even paying yet one more fee for an affordable fund savings plan or robo advisor with a broad portfolio of ETFs would end up being the better investment over stock picking.

I agree with Alain that stock picking is the ideal option, but only for investors with know-how and enough capital to create the necessary portfolios. Anyone else is more likely to lose money on stock picking, in my humble opinion.

Voting rights are an issue BUT the fact is that most shares are held in street name, so you don't get the voting rights anyway. You can have your broker appoint you as proxy for AGMs, but you can't vote. That is true for many Swiss brokers as well. Registered shares are obviously the ideal, but you pay much higher brokerage fees for these.

As mentioned by others, IB is an affordable solution for buying US funds. If you prefer keeping your assets in Switzerland or buy into Swiss ETFs or index funds, Consider Swissquote (reasonable brokerage fees) or Cornertrader (no custody fees).
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Old 18.11.2019, 22:29
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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This is a very weak argument for an individual investor. Unless you have millions invested and control a non-neglible portion of the company your vote basically doesn't matter anyway.
You're saying (shareholder) democracy is overrated, maybe even useless. I'm not saying you're wrong but a good many people are virtually guaranteed to strongly disagree.
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  #214  
Old 22.11.2019, 21:02
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

It's very simple: unlike in real world election, the votes are literally bought and sold for money, so the guys with the most money win. They don't even need to put a whole lot of money at risk to command a large voting block, that risk can be hedged away, shares can be lent, etc. As a small individual investor you don't stand any chance to influence the results for any decently sized company with what little votes and access to capital that you get.

Sometimes you literally have no voting power: it's become trendy for companies to issue no-voting shares or shares with strongly reduced voting power (like 1:10) to keep the control in the hands of insiders and founders. For example take Google: they have special B shares with high voting power that allow Larry & Sergey control >50% of the company and overrule anyone else. Google shareholder voting is a farce so it's no surprise there's no premium for their A shares (with vote) vs. C shares (no vote).
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Old 03.02.2020, 00:54
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Got the answer from Degiro: their 2 main custodians are ABN (Dutch bank) and Morgan Stanley (US bank).
In case you're moving towards this broker, I documented the opening proces while I was opening my new account: https://www.mustachianpost.com/how-t...egiro-account/

Let me know which broker you end up with as I'm always checking the best option for us CH citizens.
Hi Mustachian- Thank you very much for this information
blog.

Last edited by roegner; 08.02.2020 at 07:30. Reason: Removed advertising part
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Old 08.02.2020, 02:21
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

just wanted to show my appreciation for this thread and for the blog posted above. I really hope the guide to Interactive Broker will be complete one day, especially the taxation part(actually, is it required in CH ? I read from your previous comments that there is no tax on capital gain. Do we still to declare that income?).

I wonder whether with funds the situation could be easier to manage

In Italy I have had brokerage services for funds (SICAV) with a selection of about 4K funds, for free .Well, actually there are always "indirect" commissions depending the fund category,. The commissions for buying and selling reasonable amount of money(for egs 100K) ,depending on the fund , was around 15 euros per operation. Taxation is managed at the source (either fund management or broker, I dont know exactly) when the fund is sold, so nothing I had to worry about, including my income declaration in case of both capital gain or loss.

This is what I call cheap and simple

Degiro seems quite similar to the solution I mentioned above. Hopefully there is a free demo/subscription so I can check the funds list available. My understanding is that they don't manage the taxation part so, if was in Italy, I would have to calculate and declare my capital gain (if any).

I will check this option as well as I am not sure it is available from CH
https://www.directa.it/pub2/en/conto/100/1.html
bink.it


Thanks for all the ideas!
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