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  #161  
Old 02.02.2017, 10:09
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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That has been the case for the last 4 years at least. Still, if you stick to that argument you have missed about 200% gains. I bought FB stock in 2014/5 for ca $70 ,Google for $550...

Another problem: I hate FB (the data-slurping company) and Google (the data-slurping company). I love the technical side of FB (their OCP-stuff, solutions they come up with for scaling to their amount of users) and I love Google the search engine. But that side of their business is worth only a tiny, tiny fraction of the current valuation at the stock market.
I love Apple, but failed to buy in 2007, which was IMO the last opportunity to buy at sane prices.
They're in search for the next monopoly to milk (which is the only way to make stock-moving money, see FB and GOOG) and may or may not have something groundbreaking up their sleeves. There's also only so much money you can siphon-off the average guy before it gets unreal.

I just wish they would hike interest rates back to 4 or 5 %. Then I'd just buy government-bonds and be done with it.
Of course, that money also had to come from somewhere. In that case, it was taxpayer money.
But at least, it stopped inflating prices at the stock markets to such ridiculous levels.
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  #162  
Old 02.02.2017, 10:27
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

I don't think what you love or hate should really influence your investment decisions. I don't smoke, hate smokers, but I don't really mind owning tobacco companies' shares - they know how to milk their customers and bring the profits to shareholders. Other sin stocks like alcohol companies are also fun to own and highly profitable
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  #163  
Old 02.02.2017, 10:32
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I love Apple, but failed to buy in 2007, which was IMO the last opportunity to buy at sane prices.

I just wish they would hike interest rates back to 4 or 5 %. Then I'd just buy government-bonds and be done with it.
Of course, that money also had to come from somewhere. In that case, it was taxpayer money.
But at least, it stopped inflating prices at the stock markets to such ridiculous levels.
Apple has a PE of 50 in 2007 so insanely expensive. In both 2013 & 2016 it was under 10 if you strip out cash. 2013 was a gift from heaven which I mentioned at the time

I would like far higher interest rates, however excessive borrowings by countries & citizens makes that scenario unlikely. If interest rates stay low for another 10 years you will think stock prices in 2017 were insanely low.
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  #164  
Old 02.02.2017, 15:21
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I don't think what you love or hate should really influence your investment decisions.
I believe you should, to a certain extent.
Saying "I like the stock, but hate the company" is dishonest.
But humanity thrives around these kinds of contradictions.

OTOH, I know this is a surefire way to maximize losses.
Investments that tick all the boxes on sustainability, social responsibility and positive contributions to society and mankind are usually not profitable (and often not really investments at all).


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I would like far higher interest rates, however excessive borrowings by countries & citizens makes that scenario unlikely. If interest rates stay low for another 10 years you will think stock prices in 2017 were insanely low.
Interest rates in the 5% region would basically end the civilized world as we know it.
Unfortunately, the alternative (inflation) is going to disown most people, too. Me included (most likely).
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  #165  
Old 02.02.2017, 16:15
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Unfortunately, the alternative (inflation) is going to disown most people, too. Me included (most likely).
Why? You know you will keep cash? If you hold shares or real estate, you should be protected.
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  #166  
Old 02.02.2017, 17:23
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I believe you should, to a certain extent.
Saying "I like the stock, but hate the company" is dishonest.
Companies' main purpose is to make money. If the business is solid, legal, highly profitable, growing - why should I lose on investing opportunities in it because of some moral issues? Someone else will invest if not me.

Funds with some ethical agenda, like "green funds", typically underperform. I'll pass on them. It's government's job to help these companies (e.g. with subsidies, or by changing legislation to push the economy into the right way), not private investors'
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  #167  
Old 02.02.2017, 18:21
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Why? You know you will keep cash? If you hold shares or real estate, you should be protected.
Not really since companies can go bankrupt (or become victims of fraud) and real estate can also go bad as well if suddenly the location falls out of favor.

The economy doesn't operate properly with 0% interest rate so raising rates will come to us sooner rather than later.
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  #168  
Old 02.02.2017, 18:41
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Why? You know you will keep cash? If you hold shares or real estate, you should be protected.
Currently, ~ 80% cash.
The rest is in a ZKB custody account with negative returns so far
Or rather, the returns are eaten up by the fees. It's 70-ish% debt securities (or whatever the correct term for "Obligationen" is in that context).

Well, there's 2nd and 3rd-pillar. But that's basically illiquid and I don't count it.
If it weren't for the custody-account, everything would be cash.

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Companies' main purpose is to make money. If the business is solid, legal, highly profitable, growing - why should I lose on investing opportunities in it because of some moral issues? Someone else will invest if not me.
I believe in the responsibility of the individual.

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Funds with some ethical agenda, like "green funds", typically underperform. I'll pass on them. It's government's job to help these companies (e.g. with subsidies, or by changing legislation to push the economy into the right way), not private investors'
It only works, if the consumers and companies work in the same, general direction as the government.

Additionally (for the two specific stocks mentioned), at this point, government is unlikely to regulate FB and Google too much - they both provide actionable and valuable intelligence in the fight against all kinds of crimes.

Same with Amazon. It's so huge now and so much government-services run on it, it's probably already in "too big to fail" territory.

The state has, for large parts, already fallen prey to big business. The fact that billionaires are now heading government-agencies in the US (and the prez is a billionaire himself) is just the icing on a cake that was baked a long time ago - people are just now realizing it, while they finish the last piece of said cake.

It's different discussion.
I'm just really frustrated about the fact that I need/are supposed to make a 5% or 10% return on my (currently huge) savings just so that I have some financial leeway after retirement.
I guess it's not possible to make an omelet without breaking eggs.


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Not really since companies can go bankrupt (or become victims of fraud) and real estate can also go bad as well if suddenly the location falls out of favor.
Also, the state can increase taxes on real estate.
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  #169  
Old 02.02.2017, 18:43
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Why? You know you will keep cash? If you hold shares or real estate, you should be protected.
I think it is always good to have some cash. I was fully invested and wish I had more cash in December when share prices were very low and bargains were available...
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  #170  
Old 02.02.2017, 19:22
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I think it is always good to have some cash. I was fully invested and wish I had more cash in December when share prices were very low and bargains were available...
You could have bought them on the margin with your existing stocks as collateral. Brokers' interest rates are very, very reasonable, e.g 1.5% at IB for CHF, and tax deductable too (= 30+% discount after taxes)
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  #171  
Old 17.03.2017, 00:21
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

I went through the whole thread, very informative. I have only very recently started to invest, so far only in USD for the US market and EUR for the european market, into low-cost (well, as low as I could find) index funds (mainly VOO and IMAE).

But I get paid in CHF so I think it'd make sense to also buy a fund in CHF (and I guess containing swiss companies?). Any suggestions? I have an IB account.

Thanks!
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  #172  
Old 17.03.2017, 00:31
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I went through the whole thread, very informative. I have only very recently started to invest, so far only in USD for the US market and EUR for the european market, into low-cost (well, as low as I could find) index funds (mainly VOO and IMAE).

But I get paid in CHF so I think it'd make sense to also buy a fund in CHF (and I guess containing swiss companies?). Any suggestions? I have an IB account.

Thanks!
What about that one?

https://www.ishares.com/ch/individua...heet-en-ch.pdf
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  #173  
Old 17.03.2017, 00:43
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

It's roughly 60% invested in 3 stocks, which is the problem with the SMI. Very little of the profits from those 3 come from CH, in Nestle's case just 2%.

For an EFT index, crazy high expenses of 0.35%.
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  #174  
Old 17.03.2017, 00:49
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

Any other options? It's a small country and you will always have these problems.
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  #175  
Old 17.03.2017, 00:50
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

why would you buy something that underperforms the benchmark, but is taking away your money every year? or am I not getting something?

For the CH market, although not large cap, also not index, also not low-cost... but this is my favorite so far:
http://www.morningstar.ch/ch/funds/s...GBR05SPH&tab=1
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  #176  
Old 17.03.2017, 00:53
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Any other options? It's a small country and you will always have these problems.
Don't invest much in CH, it represents a tiny fraction of the world stock market by market capitalisation.
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  #177  
Old 17.03.2017, 11:43
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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why would you buy something that underperforms the benchmark, but is taking away your money every year? or am I not getting something?

For the CH market, although not large cap, also not index, also not low-cost... but this is my favorite so far:
http://www.morningstar.ch/ch/funds/s...GBR05SPH&tab=1

2.6b CHF assets


also there is a distribution yield of 2.55%. Is this included in the return? Not sure. Does anybody know?
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  #178  
Old 21.03.2017, 23:24
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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Don't invest much in CH, it represents a tiny fraction of the world stock market by market capitalisation.
I tend to agree. But what's a good strategy then to invest CHF's without exchanging them to EUR or USD? Or in the end it does not matter, when one invests abroad? I am still trying to fully understand the implications of currency exchange rates when investing in the stock market...
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  #179  
Old 21.03.2017, 23:33
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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I tend to agree. But what's a good strategy then to invest CHF's without exchanging them to EUR or USD? Or in the end it does not matter, when one invests abroad? I am still trying to fully understand the implications of currency exchange rates when investing in the stock market...
It matters in general since your returns also depend on the FX rate but at the moment the CHF is at a historical high (or near) vs EUR & USD therefore there is little room for further appreciation.
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  #180  
Old 21.03.2017, 23:42
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Re: Low cost Investment Funds in Switzerland

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therefore there is little room for further appreciation.
Well, the Swiss seem to be ready to try and do what it takes to keep it from further appreciating, but who knows.
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