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Old 07.10.2013, 09:45
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Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Hello all,

I have been researching about opening a 3rd pillar account in Switzerland. However, there's a high chance me an my wife will be moving out of Switzerland to Spain around September next year. So I'm not 100% sure how all this works.

How I understand it is that every year you invest in your 3rd pillar account you save taxes. And when you leave Switzerland, you have the option of cancelling that account and getting all that money at once. In this case, you will be taxed according to the 40% of the amount you are getting from that amount.

So, for example, what we would do is me and my wife would invest the maximum into the 3rd pillar account this year and the next, which makes around 27000 CHF. On September 2014 we would move to Spain, but as I understand it, for the whole year we would be considered as Swiss residents for fiscal purposes (we will have lived in Switzerland for more than half of the year). That is, we pay our taxes in Switzerland, not in Spain. Therefore, if we cancel our 3rd pillar account in, say, October 2014, we would be paying taxes under the Swiss system, so we would pay the corresponding taxes for 40% of the 27k chf we're withdrawing. However, if we cancel the 3rd pillar accounts in January 2015, we would have to deal with the Spanish fiscal system, which is another different story.

Is this correct?

Now, another thing... I've been reading that for cancelling 3rd pillar accounts, the tax rate depends on the canton the account is domicillied at. And I've heard that the canton of Schwyz is the most convenient... am I right? If so, which bank offers 3rd pillar accounts in Schwyz?

Thanks a lot for your help!
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Old 07.10.2013, 10:06
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Just my two rappen here...with the timeline you're looking at, a 3rd Pillar may not be worth the hassle and expense.

We don't know how long we'll be here, so we've opted not to use 3rd pillar. Our assets stay mostly liquid, which we like. The only fees we pay are to the bank for the annual account maintenance, and if we buy or sell a stock/bond/fund, etc. Since we're long-term investors, not much of that going on.

Taxwise, we pay a little on the dividends that are not reinvested (very few). The investments also add a little to our taxable wealth, but that's such a small percentage of it that we don't worry about it. No concerns about a 40% tax or portability of the money when we next move on. HTH.
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Old 07.10.2013, 11:03
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Yes, that was what I was thinking as well.. considering a 3rd pillar account is not all that much worth for just one year...

But then after talking to some people and crunching some numbers, I came up with the following situation, if I understand all of this correctly:

* If me and my wife invest now in a 3rd pillar account for the maximum amount this year and next, we would have around 27000 CHF.
* We would save around 1000 chfs in taxes per person and per year for making this investment: that is 4000 chf total.
* If we have 3rd pillar accounts based in Schwyz, we would have to pay 226 chf in taxes when we cancel them next year (taken from http://www.ubs.com/ch/en/swissbank/p.../toolpage.html).

This means total savings of 4000 - 226 = around 3750 chfs of taxes.

So, if I got it right, by doing this we would be saving 3750 chfs. If this is correct, I think it is worth doing.

Anyone who knows something about this that could shed some light over this?
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Old 07.10.2013, 11:14
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Hello all,

I have been researching about opening a 3rd pillar account in Switzerland. However, there's a high chance me an my wife will be moving out of Switzerland to Spain around September next year. So I'm not 100% sure how all this works.

How I understand it is that every year you invest in your 3rd pillar account you save taxes. And when you leave Switzerland, you have the option of cancelling that account and getting all that money at once. In this case, you will be taxed according to the 40% of the amount you are getting from that amount.

So, for example, what we would do is me and my wife would invest the maximum into the 3rd pillar account this year and the next, which makes around 27000 CHF. On September 2014 we would move to Spain, but as I understand it, for the whole year we would be considered as Swiss residents for fiscal purposes (we will have lived in Switzerland for more than half of the year). That is, we pay our taxes in Switzerland, not in Spain. Therefore, if we cancel our 3rd pillar account in, say, October 2014, we would be paying taxes under the Swiss system, so we would pay the corresponding taxes for 40% of the 27k chf we're withdrawing. However, if we cancel the 3rd pillar accounts in January 2015, we would have to deal with the Spanish fiscal system, which is another different story.

Is this correct?

Now, another thing... I've been reading that for cancelling 3rd pillar accounts, the tax rate depends on the canton the account is domicillied at. And I've heard that the canton of Schwyz is the most convenient... am I right? If so, which bank offers 3rd pillar accounts in Schwyz?

Thanks a lot for your help!
It's all down to what is your maximum tax rate, for lots if people in many cantons it's under 20%. Tax on payout should be under 10% . I don't know where 40% comes from.

As the investment possibilities are limited, I can get a better overall return after tax from the stockmarket , so much depends on your risk tolerance .
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Old 07.10.2013, 12:19
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Yeah I see what you mean... you might get a higher return than these 3750 chfs... but the thing is I'm not interested in investing this money... I also have some stock investments and mutual funds... I would just be interested in taking advantage of this favorable tax treatment as much as possible.
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Old 07.10.2013, 12:28
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Yeah I see what you mean... you might get a higher return than these 3750 chfs... but the thing is I'm not interested in investing this money... I also have some stock investments and mutual funds... I would just be interested in taking advantage of this favorable tax treatment as much as possible.
In many cases the tax treatment is not favourable at all, generally taxes in CH are rather low so unless you have a very high marginal rate it's a bad idea.
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Old 07.10.2013, 12:31
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Frogdr, since your profile doesn't say... are you by chance a US citizen or 'US Person' in tax terms?

If so, many 'US Persons' find that the Swiss pillar schemes are not tax efficient wrt their US obligations.

As always... see a tax pro for individually-tailored advice.
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Old 07.10.2013, 13:30
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Both me and my wife have income taxes at around 20% here in Switzerland... that's why in my calculations I counted with 1000 chfs saved in taxes each per year, making a total of 4000 chfs. It would actually probably be a little more than that, I think.

No, I'm not a US citizen. I'm a Spaniard living in Switzerland. And, as I understand it, I would be considered a fiscal resident in the country in which I live 183 days or more in one year. That's why I was thinking that it would be different cancelling the 3rd pillar accounts in October 2013 or January 2014: I would have to confront the Swiss or the Spanish fiscal system... and I think it would be better for my interests to pay these taxes in Switzerland.

But yes, I was already thinking about talking to the bank I would be opening the account with to see if they could shed some light over this... just thought that maybe sharing this issue with EF could helpful, both for me and for some other people.
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Old 07.10.2013, 15:05
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Both me and my wife have income taxes at around 20% here in Switzerland... that's why in my calculations I counted with 1000 chfs saved in taxes each per year, making a total of 4000 chfs. It would actually probably be a little more than that, I think.

No, I'm not a US citizen. I'm a Spaniard living in Switzerland. And, as I understand it, I would be considered a fiscal resident in the country in which I live 183 days or more in one year. That's why I was thinking that it would be different cancelling the 3rd pillar accounts in October 2013 or January 2014: I would have to confront the Swiss or the Spanish fiscal system... and I think it would be better for my interests to pay these taxes in Switzerland.

But yes, I was already thinking about talking to the bank I would be opening the account with to see if they could shed some light over this... just thought that maybe sharing this issue with EF could helpful, both for me and for some other people.
Don't forget that next year if you're working a half year in Switzerland, you may not get to the 20% tax bracket, so its something to think about. Also, I would be nervous about the whole tax issue with ch and switzerland...even if legitimate, there exists the chance you get hassled in spain by some ignorant tax collector which could cause you to have to get a tax attorney and eat up some of that tax savings

If none of these is a concern, then I think its a good idea. 3750+ CHF is nothing to sneeze at (a guaranteed 13.8% return on the 27k invested) I disagree that the hassle would not be worth it. I would estimate that the work required is 10-15 hours to open, maintain, and close the account so its a nice per hour wage.
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Old 07.10.2013, 15:06
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Taxwise, we pay a little on the dividends that are not reinvested (very few). The investments also add a little to our taxable wealth, but that's such a small percentage of it that we don't worry about it. No concerns about a 40% tax or portability of the money when we next move on. HTH.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that dividends, even when reinvested were taxed here. What am I missing?
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Old 07.10.2013, 15:39
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Don't forget that next year if you're working a half year in Switzerland, you may not get to the 20% tax bracket, so its something to think about. Also, I would be nervous about the whole tax issue with ch and switzerland...even if legitimate, there exists the chance you get hassled in spain by some ignorant tax collector which could cause you to have to get a tax attorney and eat up some of that tax savings

If none of these is a concern, then I think its a good idea. 3750+ CHF is nothing to sneeze at (a guaranteed 13.8% return on the 27k invested) I disagree that the hassle would not be worth it. I would estimate that the work required is 10-15 hours to open, maintain, and close the account so its a nice per hour wage.
Yeap, that's what I think. If my assumptions are correct, it's worth doing. This is why I'm asking what you guys think about it. From my research, that's what I think... but I'd like to check with some other people what their opinion is.

But yes, I will ultimately talk to the bank I want to open this account with. I'll try to figure out what banks offer accounts based in canton Schwyz, as that would mean I would pay the lowest taxes possible.
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Old 07.10.2013, 15:59
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Yeap, that's what I think. If my assumptions are correct, it's worth doing. This is why I'm asking what you guys think about it. From my research, that's what I think... but I'd like to check with some other people what their opinion is.

But yes, I will ultimately talk to the bank I want to open this account with. I'll try to figure out what banks offer accounts based in canton Schwyz, as that would mean I would pay the lowest taxes possible.
Hi frogdr,

I'm very interested in what you find out as I'm in a similar situation to yours and undecided if I am to open Pillar 3a accounts or not.

I wasn't aware that you could open specifically on a different canton, I presumed you needed to open them on your canton and then as you were leaving, to pay less tax you could move the account to Schwyz before withdrawing.

On the 25th November I intend to talk with someone that may be able to clarify the tax situation (at least for canton Basel Stadt), but I'm not sure you want to wait until then.
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Old 07.10.2013, 16:05
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

I am a resident of Basel Stadt, and I have opened my 3rd pillar account in Kanton Schwyz (because of the advise of my accountant).
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Old 07.10.2013, 16:07
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Yeap, that's what I think. If my assumptions are correct, it's worth doing. This is why I'm asking what you guys think about it. From my research, that's what I think... but I'd like to check with some other people what their opinion is.

But yes, I will ultimately talk to the bank I want to open this account with. I'll try to figure out what banks offer accounts based in canton Schwyz, as that would mean I would pay the lowest taxes possible.
Schwyz May or may not be the best canton to receive the money from, it depends......

It's possible that the payout will be taxable in full in your new country, depending on the date the payout is made. Foreign tax could be a bigger issue, also you have a currency risk if you don't want the money to be in chf. Currency changes alone can cause us tax liabilities even if a chf loss occurs.
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Old 07.10.2013, 16:07
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Yeap, that's what I think. If my assumptions are correct, it's worth doing. This is why I'm asking what you guys think about it. From my research, that's what I think... but I'd like to check with some other people what their opinion is.

But yes, I will ultimately talk to the bank I want to open this account with. I'll try to figure out what banks offer accounts based in canton Schwyz, as that would mean I would pay the lowest taxes possible.
You can go for the schwyzer Kantonalbank. Beware however that they charge 500 CHF when you close the account. An alternative is the Zuger Kantonalbank which doesnt charge a fee to close the account. They also have just slightly higher taxes than ZUG.

Note. For about 27k that you would be withdrawing next year, the tax difference is not going to be huge whether you put it in a ZH, SZ, Zug, Shaffhausen, Bank. The big differences is when you have 500,000 CHF, then the differences can be 10's of thousands CHF. The Schwyz banks know this well and have made a small fortune charging such high account closure fees
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Old 07.10.2013, 16:57
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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You can go for the schwyzer Kantonalbank. Beware however that they charge 500 CHF when you close the account. An alternative is the Zuger Kantonalbank which doesnt charge a fee to close the account. They also have just slightly higher taxes than ZUG.

Note. For about 27k that you would be withdrawing next year, the tax difference is not going to be huge whether you put it in a ZH, SZ, Zug, Shaffhausen, Bank. The big differences is when you have 500,000 CHF, then the differences can be 10's of thousands CHF. The Schwyz banks know this well and have made a small fortune charging such high account closure fees
Ok, very informative post... I wasn't taking into account the possible costs of creating / cancelling the account, thanks for informing!

As a matter of fact, I just checked, and for withdrawing 27k chf in a pillar 3 account in Schwyz I would pay 226 chf... while if that account was based in Zug, I would be paying 383 chf. Therefore, if the bank in Schwyz charges 500 chf for closing the account, I would be better off in Zug.

Thanks for the advise!

@Meeyat, which bank did you open your pillar 3 account with?

@BaselPT, I will post here all new information I learn... but please, once you talk to this person, let us know!

You guys know of any other bank that would offer the possibility of having an account in kanton Schwyz? Preferibly one that doesn't charge for closing the account
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Old 07.10.2013, 17:04
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

I would do it, as you get tax breaks for it (even if on QS) and you never know. "Leaving in Sept next year" might change to "leaving in Sept 2050"...

Setting them up is not a hassle. Short term, just speak to your bank and they'll set one (an account) up quickly.
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Old 07.10.2013, 17:27
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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I would do it, as you get tax breaks for it (even if on QS) and you never know. "Leaving in Sept next year" might change to "leaving in Sept 2050"...

Setting them up is not a hassle. Short term, just speak to your bank and they'll set one (an account) up quickly.
Haha, so true! The thing is that there seems to be a good opportunity for my career lined up in Madrid... but yeah, you never know.

I currently have an account with Postfinance... I really don't know which Kanton they're based at for tax purposes, but I guess I could ask. They also don't offer a very good interest rate for 3rd pillar accounts ... my intention was to find a bank which offers a good interest rate, an was based in kanton Schwyz, that would be the ideal thing (and that doesn't charge for closing accounts!). You guys know of any such bank? :-)
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Old 07.10.2013, 17:31
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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You can go for the schwyzer Kantonalbank. Beware however that they charge 500 CHF when you close the account. An alternative is the Zuger Kantonalbank which doesnt charge a fee to close the account. They also have just slightly higher taxes than ZUG.

Note. For about 27k that you would be withdrawing next year, the tax difference is not going to be huge whether you put it in a ZH, SZ, Zug, Shaffhausen, Bank. The big differences is when you have 500,000 CHF, then the differences can be 10's of thousands CHF. The Schwyz banks know this well and have made a small fortune charging such high account closure fees
Schweiz is a bad choice for 500k or 1,000,000 other cantons can be hugely cheaper. Generally there are not huge fees, moving a pension to the best canton can be done for 500 vhf.

Generally all providers will charge a fee when closing an account, it should be 500 or less.
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Old 07.10.2013, 18:03
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Re: Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

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Schweiz is a bad choice for 500k or 1,000,000 other cantons can be hugely cheaper. Generally there are not huge fees, moving a pension to the best canton can be done for 500 vhf.

Generally all providers will charge a fee when closing an account, it should be 500 or less.
You think there are kantons with lower taxes than Schwyz for cancelling pillar 3 accounts? For what I've seen, it seems to be the kanton with lowest taxes... which other kantons would you suggest?

I know that you could move an account from one kanton to another by paying a fee... but that's what I'd like to avoid. If I know this before hand, I can just open the account in the kanton with the lowest taxes, and then I wouldn't have the need of moving that account, saving the fees.
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