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  #21  
Old 02.06.2014, 15:20
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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If you have lived in the house as your primary residence at any time you will be exempt CGT on the last 3 years (although this may be reducing to 18 months). Also, if you let it you accrue additional relief.
Bit confused now ...i know it's not law yet ...

So we will pay CGT for the period we were away from the UK (September 2013 to September 2016 - 3 years) minus last 18 months ?
So we return to UK in September 2016 , live in the house again for another 18 months say and sell and move out....
So if value of house was 360K in September 2013 and worth say 420K in September 2016 (When we returned) ...that's gain over 3 years we were away and then say it went up in equal lumps each month ...
Thus gain over 36 months (while living in CH) was 420K minus 360K = 60K
Take off the 18 months your allowed to gain ...
so say half of 60K = 30K
minus allowances for CGT ...lets say 11K each = 22K for a married couple ..
Tax would be on 30K minus 22K = 8K at what ever rate ?
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  #22  
Old 02.06.2014, 15:48
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

At Autumn Statement 2013 the government announced that it will charge capital gains tax
(CGT) on gains made by non-residents disposing of UK residential property, from April 2015.
The charge will come into effect in April 2015 and apply only to gains arising from that date.


They state as above , only for gains from April 2015.

and also the document mentions ...

3.7 The government does not intend to make other changes to the related tax reliefs available
by reference to a personís main property, for example absence reliefs where individuals need to
be away from their main home for work or other reasons. However, depending on the final
approach, consequential changes to existing legislation may be required to ensure that they
continue to work as intended.




Will be interesting how this pans out :-)

At the end of the day ....if the CGT on selling was too much , then you would simply not sell and sit on the asset.
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  #23  
Old 02.06.2014, 16:17
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

Being away for less than 5 years does not make you non res for capital gains so this is irrelevant . He is only non res for income tax.0
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  #24  
Old 20.06.2014, 15:10
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

The five year rule for CG applies if you have previously, whilst resident, let out your main residence and want to sell it tax free whilst you are non-resident. If it has not been let out whilst resident then it can be sold tax free either as resident or non-resident. Or could.

I am also interested to know what happens if you go non-resident after 2015 for, say, four years, then come back to live in the main residence and become resident again and want to sell it in the future. If you have to pay CG this would be a disaster for people who want to work abroad but eventually come back to the UK as they would be forced out of the UK market before going abroad and might not be able to get back in if the exchange rate and housing market went against them.

If Labour get back in it is likely CG rates will be punitive as they will be desperate for money to keep their welfare voters happy (never mind that high rates generate less tax).
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  #25  
Old 20.06.2014, 15:32
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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The five year rule for CG applies if you have previously, whilst resident, let out your main residence and want to sell it tax free whilst you are non-resident. If it has not been let out whilst resident then it can be sold tax free either as resident or non-resident. Or could.

I am also interested to know what happens if you go non-resident after 2015 for, say, four years, then come back to live in the main residence and become resident again and want to sell it in the future. If you have to pay CG this would be a disaster for people who want to work abroad but eventually come back to the UK as they would be forced out of the UK market before going abroad and might not be able to get back in if the exchange rate and housing market went against them.

If Labour get back in it is likely CG rates will be punitive as they will be desperate for money to keep their welfare voters happy (never mind that high rates generate less tax).
Having high rates of CGT never produced good returns as it's clearly an optional tax. The highest rate is 28% which is hardly a killer.
It would actually make sense to charge CGT on main residences, no reason for the exemption, homes would become more affordable to first time buyers as a consequence.

Won't make any difference on people who move away to work, tax is only payable on a sale. It's not even payable at death.

Pretty good chance there will not be any capital gains on property 2015-2019, so it's actually could be beneficial to sell & create a loss to be used at a later date.
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  #26  
Old 20.06.2014, 16:39
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

"It would actually make sense to charge CGT on main residences, no reason for the exemption, homes would become more affordable to first time buyers as a consequence."

Possibly on houses over 500k but it would be a total vote loser on lower value houses and possibly bankrupt a number of banks if property values plummeted as a result. Gov is is doing everything it can think of to prop up values despite a proper fall off being overdue.

Do agree that whenever a gov interferes with a market you will end up with an even bigger crash later on. However, it is mostly the London market and a few other hotspots that are overvalued, there is a lot of reasonable, even cheap, property outside these areas. The dreadful state of Sterling means expats are locked into the UK market as exchanging the money to buy something abroad will be hit by the pound recovering, so it is a nasty mess at the moment for those wanting to get out and thinking about renting out their UK residence and going abroad.
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  #27  
Old 20.06.2014, 17:27
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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"It would actually make sense to charge CGT on main residences, no reason for the exemption, homes would become more affordable to first time buyers as a consequence."

Possibly on houses over 500k but it would be a total vote loser on lower value houses and possibly bankrupt a number of banks if property values plummeted as a result. Gov is is doing everything it can think of to prop up values despite a proper fall off being overdue.

Do agree that whenever a gov interferes with a market you will end up with an even bigger crash later on. However, it is mostly the London market and a few other hotspots that are overvalued, there is a lot of reasonable, even cheap, property outside these areas. The dreadful state of Sterling means expats are locked into the UK market as exchanging the money to buy something abroad will be hit by the pound recovering, so it is a nasty mess at the moment for those wanting to get out and thinking about renting out their UK residence and going abroad.
No reason for a 500k exemption, that's 20 times average salary.
Banks should be prudent in their lending, 3 times salary was the highest you could borrow when I first bought in London. There was a good reason for this, there is talk of restricting higher loans to 4 times salary which is a good start.

I disagree, the whole of the UK is absurdly overpriced average house price is over 6 times earnings it should be nearer 4 at the top of the cycle, probably 2.5 at the bottom as in the late 1980's. I don't see this nasty mess you refer to, if you buy a house you have to accept it's a non liquid asset bought with huge gearing & that implies a high risk.

German Property is 10% cheaper than it was 40 years ago in real terms, no reason for UK property to be 3 times the real cost of 40 years ago & expect prices to rise further. The greatest fool is probably the current owner.....
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  #28  
Old 20.06.2014, 19:26
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

to be honest, have no idea if prices are going to double or halve as the normal 20 year cycle has been disrupted by gov interference - we should just be starting to rise after falling 30-40 percent from the peak but we did not have a proper crash, 10-20 percent at most, so nothing can be predicted either way (heard it all before, market will never crash again (it did), prices have to fall (they doubled before they fell) etc...

I'd love to sell my house now, go abroad and come back in five years to find that prices have fallen substantially but I am not going to chance it and potentially get priced out of the market.

Would be hilarious if the new CGT laws came in and everyone was claiming a loss to set against other gains (ie less revenue for the tax man).
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  #29  
Old 20.06.2014, 20:10
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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to be honest, have no idea if prices are going to double or halve as the normal 20 year cycle has been disrupted by gov interference - we should just be starting to rise after falling 30-40 percent from the peak but we did not have a proper crash, 10-20 percent at most, so nothing can be predicted either way (heard it all before, market will never crash again (it did), prices have to fall (they doubled before they fell) etc...

I'd love to sell my house now, go abroad and come back in five years to find thakt prices have fallen substantially but I am not going to chance it and potentially get priced out of the market.

Would be hilarious if the new CGT laws came in and everyone was claiming a loss to set against other gains (ie less revenue for the tax man).
Base rate for last 5 years was 0.5%, what's the average mortage length now 30-35 years? I suspect average mortgage interest rate over 35 years is about 10% so 20 times today's base rate. No chance prices doubling in real terms, if they only halve in real terms over the next 35 years it would be surprising to me. Remember IHT prevents property being passed down the generations tax free, in the end it's the price a first time buyer can pay when interest rates are say 7% in 10/20/30 years time.

Those capital losses will be worthless to most people unless they play the stock market. Annual exemption is about 10k in any case, losses can only be offset against future CAPITAL gains, not income, so very little for most people to laugh at. Oh & interest only mortgages are not available, that in itself added 30% to property prices in 2007.
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  #30  
Old 20.06.2014, 23:21
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

I'm also pondering whether to sell up in London. Prices are pretty high now (potentially selling for 30x net rental) which is an amazingly good price, IMO.

The problem is what you rotate the earnings into afterwards? Property may be overpriced, but then so is practically everything else. Holding cash is unappealing over the long term and timing over the short term is difficult.
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  #31  
Old 21.06.2014, 23:08
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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I'm also pondering whether to sell up in London. Prices are pretty high now (potentially selling for 30x net rental) which is an amazingly good price, IMO.

The problem is what you rotate the earnings into afterwards? Property may be overpriced, but then so is practically everything else. Holding cash is unappealing over the long term and timing over the short term is difficult.

we are sellign in london right now because we believe it is about as high as it will get. it may trickle up but the big rises can't continue.

in terms of usign the money you are right. there are plenty of medium, high risk investments with ok returns but because you want to keep your proceeds from your house sale safe the only low risk options return such poor returns that your barely breaking even after inflation.
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  #32  
Old 23.06.2014, 07:29
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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we are sellign in london right now because we believe it is about as high as it will get. it may trickle up but the big rises can't continue.

in terms of usign the money you are right. there are plenty of medium, high risk investments with ok returns but because you want to keep your proceeds from your house sale safe the only low risk options return such poor returns that your barely breaking even after inflation.
Considering selling up in London too but selling up in Zug seems more appealing at the moment! (but we need a place to live).

I got another place in London just a year ago from a foreign investor who wanted out before the new CGT laws came in. That place is up 50% now. It is nuts and I also don't think it will continue, but money sitting in the bank doesn't give much.
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  #33  
Old 23.06.2014, 10:39
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

I think it's odd to want out now because of the new CGT rules, they probably won't make much difference from when they start as looks like a period of slower growth we are heading for now for many reasons, agents in my part of London are reporting it softening quickly. But you need to take profits at some point and now may be opportune because of the slow down. But as said before - what to do instead? I've just opened an absolute return fund, riskier than a bank or bonds, you're trusting the fund managers to never to lose money and still find a way to make some in all market conditions, but safer than anything else with higher returns IMO. Depends where you want the money (and yourself) to end up too - pound is only likely to strengthen from here. I'm thinking NZ for a long-term retirement plan!
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Old 23.06.2014, 10:54
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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I think it's odd to want out now because of the new CGT rules, they probably won't make much difference from when they start as looks like a period of slower growth we are heading for now for many reasons, agents in my part of London are reporting it softening quickly. But you need to take profits at some point and now may be opportune because of the slow down. But as said before - what to do instead? I've just opened an absolute return fund, riskier than a bank or bonds, you're trusting the fund managers to never to lose money and still find a way to make some in all market conditions, but safer than anything else with higher returns IMO. Depends where you want the money (and yourself) to end up too - pound is only likely to strengthen from here. I'm thinking NZ for a long-term retirement plan!
I don't know which absolute return fund you have invested in, however many hedge funds have gone bankrupt in spectacular fashion. It's a great ride till something happens that was not expected, probably way higher risk than you expect. Of course a few fund managers just jumped on the name bandwagon to have high charging poorly performing index hugging funds.
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  #35  
Old 23.06.2014, 12:06
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

Assuming that it is just gains arising after April next year and not gains chargeable from next year (wording suggests the former, but i haven't seen anything that explicitly says this is the case), then the impact is likely to be minimal for a while given:

a) unlikely to be much in the way of gains after the massive run up in the last couple of years;
b) assuming a small gain, you have the annual exemption and possibly only 18% rate;
c) possible PR or Lettings relief;
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  #36  
Old 23.06.2014, 12:27
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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Assuming that it is just gains arising after April next year and not gains chargeable from next year (wording suggests the former, but i haven't seen anything that explicitly says this is the case), then the impact is likely to be minimal for a while given:

a) unlikely to be much in the way of gains after the massive run up in the last couple of years;
b) assuming a small gain, you have the annual exemption and possibly only 18% rate;
c) possible PR or Lettings relief;
Whilst I agree it seems odd that it's not gains chargeable from next year, hardly a vote looser? & with huge rolled up gains.......
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Old 23.06.2014, 13:04
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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Whilst I agree it seems odd that it's not gains chargeable from next year, hardly a vote looser? & with huge rolled up gains.......
the main reason I can think of from a tax policy point of view is to avoid retroactive taxation.

from a market distortion POV, it probably also makes sense to avoid triggering a dump of properties before an arbitrary date.

if it was just a straight out change from a cut-off date, it would be cheaper to avoid this by crystallising the gain before the cut-off date and paying the stamp duty.
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Old 23.06.2014, 13:21
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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I don't know which absolute return fund you have invested in, however many hedge funds have gone bankrupt in spectacular fashion. It's a great ride till something happens that was not expected, probably way higher risk than you expect. Of course a few fund managers just jumped on the name bandwagon to have high charging poorly performing index hugging funds.
A hedge fund is something completely different. And anyone who invests in an absolute return fund without a long track record of satisfactory performance doesn't know what they are doing. You need to be sure:
-The organisation is fully bought into the absolute return approach (ideally it should be all they do)
-They are paid and incentivised in line with the absolute return philosophy
-They have demonstrated their competence over a sustained period
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Old 23.06.2014, 14:44
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

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A hedge fund is something completely different. And anyone who invests in an absolute return fund without a long track record of satisfactory performance doesn't know what they are doing. You need to be sure:
-The organisation is fully bought into the absolute return approach (ideally it should be all they do)
-They are paid and incentivised in line with the absolute return philosophy
-They have demonstrated their competence over a sustained period
Hedge funds believe there are absolute return funds , they never intend to loose money.
Paying incentives based on a higher return, implies they will be paid more for taking a higher risk, which they do & ultimately blow out. They should invest in the fund themselves to benefit & not charge an extra performance fee, then their interest is matched with yours. If it's not they may as well go to the casino & can keep 20% of the profits without any risk! which is ultimately what they do.
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Old 22.08.2014, 20:46
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Re: Proposed Capital Gains Tax on UK property for expats

Has anyone got clarity on the final wording of the bill?


AbFab's link was the minutes of the consultation. We're trying to confirm one way or another what the final decision is. The consultation suggests CGT on CG from April 2015, i.e. setting the property value at that point moving forward... vs. GC made from the original purchase price.


We even asked a UK solicitor and she suggested it was the latter! Ouch...


TIA
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