Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 03.09.2014, 15:16
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

The Toronto Globe and Mail is running an article on the renunciation fee hike:

"Abandoning citizenship is often a last desperate way for Americans living outside the U.S. to escape a lifetime of onerous tax filings.
But it’s about to become a much costlier exit strategy.
Citing “dramatically” increased numbers of Americans abandoning their citizenship, the U.S. State Department is raising its renunciation fee to $2,350 (U.S.) a person on Sept. 12, up from the current $450."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle20308580/
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 08.09.2014, 22:18
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Posters on Isaac Brock are writing that the earliest renunciation appointments available at the Vancouver and Calgary consulates are now January 2015. Toronto was February 2015 about a week ago with no more recent information.

If the aim of the Obama administration and State Department is to reduce the demand by upping the price to $2,350, it does not appear to be working. The price, even at 20 times the average price asked by other developed countries, is not yet too high.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 08.09.2014, 22:23
Karl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 1,964
Groaned at 193 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 2,884 Times in 932 Posts
Karl has a reputation beyond reputeKarl has a reputation beyond reputeKarl has a reputation beyond reputeKarl has a reputation beyond reputeKarl has a reputation beyond reputeKarl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

If you think about it, they can charge whatever they want.
I wouldn't be surprised if the price becomes 5K, then 10K in a couple years. The price of freedom will always be paid.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Karl for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 11.09.2014, 01:56
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 1,687
Groaned at 142 Times in 98 Posts
Thanked 4,529 Times in 1,800 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

http://news.yahoo.com/renouncing-u-s...150405883.html


Here's an example of how this is all being portrayed to the American public through mainstream media- the Feds have "no idea "why so many more people are turning in the blue book lol... The article then takes a strange turn and discusses how a terrorist might lose their citizenship... because one can only assume that if yo'd like to give up citizenship, you must be either a greedy millionaire or an America-hating jihadi...
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 11.09.2014, 10:15
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

The Yahoo story on renunciations states that "From 2001 to 2008, 3,937 people who had lived on U.S. soil for at least eight years either renounced their citizenship or gave up lawful permanent resident status, according to Andrew Mitchel, an international tax attorney in Centerbrook, Connecticut, who tracks the figures closely."

In 2013 the US Citizenship and Immigration Services, part of the Department of Homeland Security, responded to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request on the number of greencard holders ("permanent resident status") who had abandoned their greencards. As can be seen, it runs around 16,000 per year. (See copy stored at Google Docs link below).

Please note the following:
1) This data includes greencard abandoners who are considered "short-term" holders (< eight years) and "long-term" holders (> eight years). The data published in the US Federal Register is to US citizens who renounced/relinquished and long-term greencard holders.
- To confirm, a split between short-term and long-term greencard holders is not available in this data.
2) The US Federal government uses a fiscal year, Oct 1 to Sep 30, and not the calendar year.
- To illustrate, the partial 2013 figure of 11,185 is for Oct 2012 to May 2013 only (because the data was extracted in June 2013). Extrapolating the 2013 greencard holder data for 12 months would yield 16,777 (11,185 x 12/8).

Considering that there was a total of 113,468 greencard abandonments for FY2001 to FY2008, the reported 3,937 US citizenship renunciations/ relinquishments and long-term greencard holder abandonments for the period 2001 to 2008 is likely extremely understated.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7Vq...T2s/edit?pli=1
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MennoFloyd for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 11.09.2014, 14:59
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Aargau
Posts: 111
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 143 Times in 51 Posts
Dual US/Swiss Citizen has made some interesting contributions
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Unfortunately such articles mislead the general US public on the problems faced by overseas Americans.
It adds to the misconception that all of us were on ‘US soil’ where we took the money and run to avoid paying taxes.
The vast majority of us are earning 100% of our income outside of the US, yet subject to 2 tax regimes in conflict with each other.
And now several articles are mixing us up with terrorists. Many people in the US don’t know enough of the real story to sort out the fact from fiction.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Dual US/Swiss Citizen for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 13.09.2014, 19:57
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,479
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,291 Times in 9,245 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Want to complain? Add your comments here.

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...RDOC_0001-2956
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 13.09.2014, 21:19
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,479
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,291 Times in 9,245 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

A poster over on the Isaac Brock Society website has reported today that at his interview in Vancouver on Thursday last he was told that he wouldn't get his CLN until he had filed his 8854 form in 2015. Outrageous! Especially if this is a worldwide order and not just affecting Canadians.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 30.09.2014, 22:44
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 107
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 67 Times in 25 Posts
mikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of many
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Hi guys!

I'm in the process of getting rid of my US citizenship. (I was born there to American parents, but I only lived the US from 1972-1977 and 1980-1982. The US is irrelevant to my life.) I've been a Swiss citizenship for about 5 years now, and, unfortunately, I never got around to doing the job until now.

For obvious reasons, I'm VERY interested in understanding whether I can relinquish rather than renounce citizenship. Stipulation 2 of Code § 1481 makes it sound to me, like it should be possible for me to take an oath of allegiance to the Swiss government as a means of relinquishing my US citizenship.

Copy Paste:

(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or [....]

Does anyone here have any experience with this?
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 30.09.2014, 23:05
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,479
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,291 Times in 9,245 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Yes, you should be able to apply for a relinquishment due to taking on Swiss citizenship. You'll need to fill in this form:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf

Embassy staff use it to determine how close your ties are to the US; whether you've still been voting in elections, filing taxes, etc. Contact the embassy in Bern for more info and to make an appointment to relinquish.

What state are your US tax filings in, if at all?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 30.09.2014, 23:33
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 107
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 67 Times in 25 Posts
mikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of many
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

About tax filing:

I don't know where I file. I was born in Chicago, and my grandparents used to live in St. Louis, but that's about all I know. I've never voted. (Back in the early 90s I wanted to, but I couldn't figure out how, in particular because I didn't seem to belong to anyplace in particular.)

Back in 2012 I really tried hard to pull myself together. Downloaded Turbotax and filled everything out to the best of my knowledge and sent all the papers to wherever it was Turbotax said to send them. (I even included a side note stating my earnings every year since my first job in the 90s.) I assume someone got my paperwork; I never heard anything back.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 01.10.2014, 00:36
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 107
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 67 Times in 25 Posts
mikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of many
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Quote:
View Post
Yes, you should be able to apply for a relinquishment due to taking on Swiss citizenship. You'll need to fill in this form:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
That was an interesting read. You know, I must say that I can't honestly remember WHAT I had to do when they gave me Swiss citizenship. At the moment, I would obviously be very happy if I could say that I swore some kind of oath - but holding one's hand over one's heart and pledging allegiance to the flag of the united Cantons of Switzerland doesn't really seem like the sort of thing the Swiss would go in for ...

I think I'll have to go ask the people at the Einwohnerkontrolle ...

(Heck. Perhaps they might even let me declare an extra oath of loyalty to the Swiss government and have it notarized!)
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 01.10.2014, 08:43
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,479
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,291 Times in 9,245 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Ah, that might have blown the relinquishment option then. If you've been filing tax returns since getting Swiss citizenship then they're likely to decide that you wanted to be a dual national and not to give up your US citizenship.

How many years have you filed for? Whether you can relinquish or in the end have to renounce you'll need to have filed 5 years of returns so you can file an 8854 to clear your US tax obligations and not be considered a "covered expatriate".

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf

What about FBAR forms reporting your "foreign" Swiss bank accounts? Have you filed those too?

You could try for a relinquishment, but be prepared for it to be refused in which case you'll have to renounce and pay the fee.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 01.10.2014, 10:59
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 107
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 67 Times in 25 Posts
mikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of manymikegray has earned the respect of many
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Quote:
View Post
Ah, that might have blown the relinquishment option then. If you've been filing tax returns since getting Swiss citizenship then they're likely to decide that you wanted to be a dual national and not to give up your US citizenship.
Hmm. Rats. (I don't suppose it would work to argue that I filled out the tax returns to facilitate giving up citizenship??)
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 01.10.2014, 11:19
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,479
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,291 Times in 9,245 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

I doubt it would work for a relinquishment. After all you filed US tax returns some 2-3 years after getting your Swiss citizenship so it's rather obvious you still consider yourself to be American too. Given that you have to present your Swiss citizenship certificate they're going to see the discrepancy between the dates of getting citizenship and filing of US returns on the 4079 form.

It'll certainly help with facilitating losing your American one though. If your taxes are up to date then you'll only need to file the final year and the 8854 once you've been to the embassy.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 13.10.2014, 00:25
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 1
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
rbin has no particular reputation at present
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Does the renunciation form can be DENIED for some reason?

please I need to know if someone have their renunciation denied due,

for example, for child support debit, or pending warrants

it would be a violation of human rights to have your request denied I believe. and if its denied should one SUE the State department?

thanks
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 13.10.2014, 01:38
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: zh
Posts: 60
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
Morph has no particular reputation at present
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Quote:
View Post
Yes, you should be able to apply for a relinquishment due to taking on Swiss citizenship. You'll need to fill in this form:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf

Embassy staff use it to determine how close your ties are to the US; whether you've still been voting in elections, filing taxes, etc. Contact the embassy in Bern for more info and to make an appointment to relinquish.

What state are your US tax filings in, if at all?
Hi Medea, I have a friend I am helping out with this process of giving up the blue book.
She is essentially Swiss, both parents Swiss, was born in Milwaukee, where her father was working on a civil engineering project, and lived there for only 3 months. She has never voted there, never filed tax returns, her child has only Swiss citizenship, and only speaks basic holiday English, hence why i am helping ( I am from UK, just helping with language difficulties).
She also earns under the 100,000 dollars which I believe is the cutoff point for paying tax.
Do you think she might be able to use the route as detailed in the pdf?
Thanks in advance!
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 13.10.2014, 08:56
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,479
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,291 Times in 9,245 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Quote:
View Post
Does the renunciation form can be DENIED for some reason?

please I need to know if someone have their renunciation denied due,

for example, for child support debit, or pending warrants

it would be a violation of human rights to have your request denied I believe. and if its denied should one SUE the State department?

thanks
rbin, I found this on the State Dept website:

7 FAM 1294.2 Fugitives from Justice

(CT:CON-285; 03-06-2009)

a. Persons facing criminal charges in the United States or elsewhere may seek to renounce.

b. They may express a reluctance to come to post for fear of being apprehended by authorities and may request to be permitted to renounce at another location.

c. You immediately must alert CA/OCS, CA/PPT/L/LE, the RSO and L/LEI to any case in which CLASS or other information received by you indicates the potential renunciant is or may be a fugitive from justice. You must report immediately any case of a US citizen who is the subject of an extradition or deportation request by the United States who inquires about renunciation of citizenship to CA/OCS and L/LEI. (See7 FAM 1600, Extradition, and 7 FAM 190, Deserters, Stragglers and Fugitives.)

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120538.pdf

Whether the renunciation would be denied I really don't know. Whatever happens, both the child support payments and the warrants would still be outstanding and would need to be resolved.

Quote:
View Post
Hi Medea, I have a friend I am helping out with this process of giving up the blue book.
She is essentially Swiss, both parents Swiss, was born in Milwaukee, where her father was working on a civil engineering project, and lived there for only 3 months. She has never voted there, never filed tax returns, her child has only Swiss citizenship, and only speaks basic holiday English, hence why i am helping ( I am from UK, just helping with language difficulties).
She also earns under the 100,000 dollars which I believe is the cutoff point for paying tax.
Do you think she might be able to use the route as detailed in the pdf?
Thanks in advance!
If you're thinking can she relinquish (which is what that form helps the staff determine) and avoid the fee then no. As she was born in the US the only way she can relinquish is if she's worked for the Swiss government or served in the Swiss military as these could be considered relinquishing acts (See point 4 in the following link), but even then it depends on whether or not the embassy/State Dept would accept these as a reason being that she's also Swiss from birth. There has been some success taking this line in Canada, but it will involve a battle to do so and you'll need documents to prove your case like copies of any oaths taken at the time, etc.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

Unless she has done either/both of the above her only option is to renounce and pay the $2,350 fee.

Not sure where you're getting $100,000 from as the filing threshold. According to this the figure can be as low as $3,900. For a single person it starts at $10,000.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/...blink100047318

Although iirc I have seen mention on the forum of $92,500 as figure so hopefully someone else will have more info on that side of things.

I assume she's after a CLN because her bank here is asking for it? What about any requests for proof of being US tax compliant?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 13.10.2014, 09:35
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: zh
Posts: 60
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
Morph has no particular reputation at present
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Quote:
If you're thinking can she relinquish (which is what that form helps the staff determine) and avoid the fee then no. As she was born in the US the only way she can relinquish is if she's worked for the Swiss government or served in the Swiss military as these could be considered relinquishing acts (See point 4 in the following link), but even then it depends on whether or not the embassy/State Dept would accept these as a reason being that she's also Swiss from birth. There has been some success taking this line in Canada, but it will involve a battle to do so and you'll need documents to prove your case like copies of any oaths taken at the time, etc.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

Unless she has done either/both of the above her only option is to renounce and pay the $2,350 fee.

Not sure where you're getting $100,000 from as the filing threshold. According to this the figure can be as low as $3,900. For a single person it starts at $10,000.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/...blink100047318

Although iirc I have seen mention on the forum of $92,500 as figure so hopefully someone else will have more info on that side of things.

I assume she's after a CLN because her bank here is asking for it? What about any requests for proof of being US tax compliant?
Hi Medea, thanks for the reply.
I was thinking that she could relinquish, and avoid the fee, and the visit to the embassy.

It states on the form that if the applicant is not fluent in English, then two people who are fluent must accompany her. This seems a bit over the top, especially as I have been informed by the embassy that they speak Swiss German there.
I got the 100, 000 figure from a cursory scan of the forms from the embassy. I am fluent in English, but not in legalese, so I may have that completely wrong.
My friend hasn't received any bank documents, or any requests for tax compliance, she just wants to be rid of the passport, before it gets any more onerous. As I said before, she has never filed any tax returns in the US, I guess she assumed no reasonable state would have such a double tax system.
Do you think that she will have to file a tax return anyway? I must say, having got involved in this situation, its all a bit Kafkaesque and confusing.
I mean, she doesn't even have a current valid US passport. Does she need to renew it, just to give it up again?
Thanks for your help.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 13.10.2014 at 18:18. Reason: fixed quoting
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 13.10.2014, 09:47
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,128
Groaned at 2,025 Times in 1,522 Posts
Thanked 34,678 Times in 16,471 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US State Dept hiking renunciation fees to $2,350

Quote:
View Post
she doesn't even have a current valid US passport. Does she need to renew it, just to give it up again?
No, no need for a valid passport.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Warning - Glitch Crashes US State Dept's Database Medea Fleecestealer International affairs/politics 0 24.07.2014 16:09
They have GOT to be kidding [Visa fees to enter the US] basher General off-topic 58 15.04.2012 09:32
Help to avoid currency conversion fees and ATM fees Petrosian Finance/banking/taxation 1 21.05.2011 17:50
Vague US Dept of State Warning for EU Guest International affairs/politics 24 05.10.2010 00:03
Mailboxes Etc address in US and then shipping to CH. Customs? VAT? Import Fees? foliorose Other/general 11 19.07.2010 15:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0