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  #21  
Old 24.02.2015, 09:19
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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I just renounced my greencard and now trying the wifey to renounce her citizenship. Don't want my kids to be forced the passport either...
Isaac Brock Society has calculated that 30% of the babies born to US citizens in the UK in 2014 were not registered with the US embassy and consulates there:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/09/...omment-5613412

This is a wise decision by the parents of these unfortunate children and should allow them lead a normal life.
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  #22  
Old 24.02.2015, 09:55
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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If you want to be sure to have nothing to do with it, why not renounce and be done with it for sure?
Because last I knew, they did not allow minor children (or disabled persons) to renounce.
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  #23  
Old 24.02.2015, 11:30
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

It is only clear if both parents are US citizens. In many cases, including the one cited earlier, in the case of one-citizen parent, it is not automatic, and one has to prove that the US citizen parent lived in the US a certain period of time. So let the IRS or other government authorities try to find school records, etc.. for me or whoever going back 40-50 years, good luck.

Futher, you can claim children here and not claim them as dependents on US tax forms, done it for many years, there are differences in IRS terminology for dependent children (must be citizens) and qualifying children (non-citizens) for IRS filings. IRS knows I have non-citizen children, no problems if audited. And I see no reason to make them US citizens to claim some minor deduction.

So nothing to hide and no fears of finding out.

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If, however, the IRS does by some means find out, as the inevitably do, they are famously without a sense of humor with respect to the sort of argument described above. Kind of like billag, but worse.

I might also imagine that the parents would prefer to claim the dependent deduction on their child at some point. Or, should they get audited and the IRS sees a dependent on their Swiss taxes but not their American. Or really, if they get audited, full stop.

The point is, your strategy is "don't ever let them find out you exist." Apart from cramping one's lifestyle in terms of hiding one's existence from the United States, you are also digging a progressively deeper hole the longer you go with the strategy - and remember, the IRS only has to get lucky once during the lifespan of the child. Better to go through the front door and deal with it, than try to beat the system, because the system will beat back.
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Old 24.02.2015, 12:04
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

I remain ever baffled by people who complain about a tax regime that has existed since the Civil War - for those of you who may not know, this means roughly the 1860's. I am even more baffled by the EF posters who are always the first to disembowel expats in Switzerland for signing contracts without understanding German, not knowing the intricate and often counter-intuitive traffic laws in Switzerland, not knowing to avoid Migros on a Saturday afternoon, etc., but who turn around and try to use ignorance of US immigration and taxation laws as an excuse or recommendation for non-compliance. imagine, for example, the backlash on EF if a dual-citizen poster living abroad came on here looking for advice as to how best get his son or daughter out of compulsory Swiss civil service.



if you don't like US tax laws (and who could possibly like them), or don't think those tax laws are worth whatever benefit you get, don't apply for a green card and don't become a citizen. simples.

oh, and the numbers of renunciations are not exactly staggering, at roughly .001% they would be significantly smaller than the rounding error on the next census.
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  #25  
Old 24.02.2015, 12:09
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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if you don't like US tax laws (and who could possibly like them), or don't think those tax laws are worth whatever benefit you get, don't apply for a green card and don't become a citizen. simples.
I am not a US citizen and have no intention of ever applying for a Green Card, but US tax laws directly affect me, my family and our financial affairs.

They're a pain in the arse and I have no intention of shutting up about that fact, even if it does upset a few "patriots" who might be within earshot.
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  #26  
Old 24.02.2015, 12:18
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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oh, and the numbers of renunciations are not exactly staggering, at roughly .001% they would be significantly smaller than the rounding error on the next census.
A poster on Isaac Brock Society estimated that 20% of U.S.-Dual Citizens in Switzerland had given up their U.S. citizenship in the past four years. The calculation did not include U.S. citizens who had renounced outside of Switzerland. Switzerland has the highest renunciation rate for U.S. citizens worldwide.
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  #27  
Old 24.02.2015, 12:20
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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Switzerland has the highest renunciation rate for U.S. citizens worldwide.
of course it does, Switzerland is one of the few western nations that offer a lower personal income tax rate than the US and so renouncing US citizenship has a clear and direct financial benefit.

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They're a pain in the arse and I have no intention of shutting up about that fact, even if it does upset a few "patriots" who might be within earshot.
I am hardly a "patriot", and you're welcome to complain about whatever you want. just pointing out that complaining about the US philosophy of taxing on the basis of citizenship rather than residence is about as useful as complaining about the US philosophy of utilizing a common law rather than civil law judicial system.
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  #28  
Old 24.02.2015, 12:24
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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of course it does, Switzerland is one of the few western nations that offer a lower personal income tax rate than the US and so renouncing US citizenship has a clear and direct financial benefit.



I am hardly a "patriot", and you're welcome to complain about whatever you want. just pointing out that complaining about the US philosophy of taxing on the basis of citizenship rather than residence is about as useful as complaining about the US philosophy of utilizing a common law judicial system.
Probably zero capital gains tax is more important, income tax rates can be rather high in many cantons.
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  #29  
Old 24.02.2015, 12:26
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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I am hardly a "patriot", and you're welcome to complain about whatever you want. just pointing out that complaining about the US philosophy of taxing on the basis of citizenship rather than residence is about as useful as complaining about the US philosophy of utilizing a common law rather than civil law judicial system.
Yeah, but the US's choice of law system doesn't affect me, whereas the idiotic tax regime does.

As a non-citizen, with no interest in ever becoming a citizen, it is infuriating that a foreign government has so much negative influence on my life and that of my family.
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  #30  
Old 24.02.2015, 12:35
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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I remain ever baffled by people who complain about a tax regime that has existed since the Civil War - for those of you who may not know, this means roughly the 1860's.

...if you don't like US tax laws (and who could possibly like them), or don't think those tax laws are worth whatever benefit you get, don't apply for a green card and don't become a citizen. simples.
That's all fine if they stayed in the 1860s in their own country, but as DB implied, it is the exterritorial application of US laws that is at the crux of the recent ire, at least for me. And I might add, the US has been increasingly following this same modus operandi of exterritorial application in many other areas than taxation in recent years; unfortunately there hasn't been any major resistance by the international community so they continue to push boundaries.
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  #31  
Old 24.02.2015, 12:54
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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So, it's the U.S. and the tin-pot African dictatorship of Eritrea that continue with Citizenship Based Taxation. A nice companion for the U.S.
I wonder how many Eritrean - US dual citizens there are, living outside of both countries.

Speak of a taxation triple whammy.
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  #32  
Old 24.02.2015, 13:34
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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That's all fine if they stayed in the 1860s in their own country, but as DB implied, it is the exterritorial application of US laws that is at the crux of the recent ire, at least for me. And I might add, the US has been increasingly following this same modus operandi of exterritorial application in many other areas than taxation in recent years; unfortunately there hasn't been any major resistance by the international community so they continue to push boundaries.
but this is part of what baffles me, the US has always (or at least since the 1860's) applied its tax laws extra-territorially. the only thing that has changed is the US imposition of disclosure requirements on foreign banks who choose to have US-citizen clients and who have assets in the US, which is generally targeted at ensuring that those US-citizen clients are complying with their own disclosure requirements. and, if you have followed the recent press coverage of UBS, Credit Suisse, HSBC and others, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out why the US would have dreamt up those disclosure requirements.

I understand completely that there are US-citizens having dual-citizenship who may have been previously unaware of their US legal obligations, that there are US-citizens living abroad who have been knowingly breaching their US legal obligations, and the US government probably has absolutely zero way of distinguishing between the two - meaning "innocent" (and I use quotes only because ignorance is not the same as true innocence) people are getting stuck in the middle. but it's hard to truly sympathize when people use terms like "accidentally born in the US and stayed there for 3 months", which is just patently absurd and does a gross disservice to any notion of human intelligence.
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Old 24.02.2015, 13:37
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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it's hard to truly sympathize when people use terms like "accidentally born in the US and stayed there for 3 months", which is just patently absurd and does a gross disservice to any notion of human intelligence.
So you think it's normal that someone who is British, who has spent all but the first three months of their lives in Britain, was educated in Britain, worked nowhere else but in Britain, has only property in Britain, has two parents who are British, but who merely happened to be born on US soil, should be liable to all the miseries and inconveniences of US citizenship without any of the benefits?

How is that fair?
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Old 24.02.2015, 13:43
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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So you think it's normal that someone who is British, who has spent all but the first three months of their lives in Britain, was educated in Britain, worked nowhere else but in Britain, has only property in Britain, has two parents who are British, but who merely happened to be born on US soil, should be liable to all the miseries and inconveniences of US citizenship without any of the benefits?

How is that fair?
Her choice whether or not to have the benefits, surely?
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Old 24.02.2015, 13:46
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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Her choice whether or not to have the benefits, surely?
Not really, if you have no real links to the United States. Not everybody is an international jet-setter type with a foot on each continent. Some of us just want a quiet life without some foreign government poking its nose into our business.
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Old 24.02.2015, 14:06
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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Not really, if you have no real links to the United States. Not everybody is an international jet-setter type with a foot on each continent. Some of us just want a quiet life without some foreign government poking its nose into our business.
Being a citizen is a real link. It's the right to go and live there, at any time and for any length of time, without proving that you're a worthwhile person or net contributor to society or whatever.

"Home is the place where, when you have to go there,

They have to take you in."
"I should have called it
Something you somehow haven't to deserve."
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Old 24.02.2015, 14:16
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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Being a citizen is a real link. It's the right to go and live there, at any time and for any length of time, without proving that you're a worthwhile person or net contributor to society or whatever.

"Home is the place where, when you have to go there,

They have to take you in."
"I should have called it
Something you somehow haven't to deserve."
The inalienable right to live in a country where the cheese is all wrong?
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  #38  
Old 24.02.2015, 14:17
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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So you think it's normal that someone who is British, who has spent all but the first three months of their lives in Britain, was educated in Britain, worked nowhere else but in Britain, has only property in Britain, has two parents who are British, but who merely happened to be born on US soil, should be liable to all the miseries and inconveniences of US citizenship without any of the benefits?

How is that fair?
a fair is someplace kids go to show off their pigs, and life is too short to debate the difference between what is "fair" and what is "law". are you suggesting that the person born in the US and his or her parents were completely unaware of the fact that the birth resulted in US citizenship for the newborn? or were the parents aware of the grant of citizenship and simply never bothered to determine the consequences?

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Old 24.02.2015, 14:26
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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a fair is someplace kids go to show off their pigs, and life is too short to debate the difference between what is "fair" and what is "law". are you suggesting that the person born in the US and his or her parents were completely unaware of the fact that the birth resulted in US citizenship for the newborn? or were the parents aware of the grant of citizenship and simply never bothered to determine the consequences?

I think there is a difference between having a "right to citizenship" and having a citizenship foisted upon you by a foreign country.

A "right" is something you can voluntarily relinquish without having to jump through too many hoops. The "right to pursue happiness" does not mean that the US can persecute people for being unhappy.
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Old 24.02.2015, 14:27
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Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

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a fair is someplace kids go to show off their pigs, and life is too short to debate the difference between what is "fair" and what is "law". are you suggesting that the person born in the US and his or her parents were completely unaware of the fact that the birth resulted in US citizenship for the newborn? or were the parents aware of the grant of citizenship and simply never bothered to determine the consequences?

Dunno, but last time I looked civilised countries didn't punish children for the sins (or ignorance) of their parents.
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