Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 01.03.2015, 12:02
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,273
Groaned at 369 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 16,062 Times in 9,133 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
My question to you good folks: Does anyone happen to know whether former US citizens (i.e. non-US citizens) are permitted to reside in the US permanently? I would like to leave this option open for my retirement, so work permits would not be an issue. Residing in the US for the better part of the year would be another option I might be interested in.

Ultimately, the answer to this question may well make or break my decision to renounce US citizenship.

Thanks in advance for any advice and/or tips on where I can get reliable information.
Not unless you qualify for the appropriate visa to do so. You can't pick and choose what part of being a citizen you get to keep. If you give up your citizenship you're an alien and would need a visa to be able to live/work in the States again. It's quite clear on the Bern embassy website:

What privileges of my U.S. citizenship can I retain after I renounce?

You will not retain any privileges of citizenship, such as traveling freely within or living in the United States.

http://bern.usembassy.gov/service/renunciation.html
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 01.03.2015, 12:11
klarenca's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Olten
Posts: 48
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 23 Times in 19 Posts
klarenca has no particular reputation at present
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
Isaac Brock Society published this piece called "Getting a U.S. residence visa after giving up citizenship":

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/...p-citizenship/
Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 01.03.2015, 12:36
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dornach
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts
gjfuzzy has no particular reputation at present
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

To put another angle on this, my experience is that the vast majority of US citizens do not know that citizenship based taxation is the tax policy of the US and that it has been for a very long time. To be fair, this is not at all surprising given the byzantine and convoluted tax code.

When I share my own story with friends and family they all think it is patently unfair and quite frankly ridiculous. Why don't people know? My view is that because it impacts so few people and there is a (mis)perception that people living and working overseas have it easy. On top of that, there is no political representation for those of us living overseas and therefore no impetus to do anything about it.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank gjfuzzy for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 01.03.2015, 21:59
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,432
Groaned at 35 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 10,888 Times in 3,249 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
To put another angle on this, my experience is that the vast majority of US citizens do not know that citizenship based taxation is the tax policy of the US and that it has been for a very long time. To be fair, this is not at all surprising given the byzantine and convoluted tax code.
That's interesting... my experience is exactly the opposite. People I have had to explain the situation to mostly thought it was natural and right that US citizens should pay US taxes, had no idea that other countries tax on the basis of residency. In their view Switzerland is the one being rough on me by subjecting me to (potential) double taxation.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MathNut for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 01.03.2015, 22:49
eddiejc1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Derwood, MD USA
Posts: 1,005
Groaned at 22 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 684 Times in 372 Posts
eddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputation
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
That's interesting... my experience is exactly the opposite. People I have had to explain the situation to mostly thought it was natural and right that US citizens should pay US taxes, had no idea that other countries tax on the basis of residency. In their view Switzerland is the one being rough on me by subjecting me to (potential) double taxation.
Do those people also know that the United States also taxes on the basis of residency? In other words, Swiss citizens who come to live in the United States must pay American taxes. They aren't subject to double taxation because the Swiss governent doesn't tax their income like the U.S. does.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank eddiejc1 for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 01.03.2015, 23:02
eddiejc1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Derwood, MD USA
Posts: 1,005
Groaned at 22 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 684 Times in 372 Posts
eddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputation
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
On top of that, there is no political representation for those of us living overseas and therefore no impetus to do anything about it.
Technically, except for American expatriates from D.C., Puerto Rico, or the other American territories, there is representation. If you were registered to vote from Podunk, Iowa before you came to Switzerland, they are still your representative and you can vote him or her out of office? But practically, you're right. I don't think there are enough registered voters in any one congressional district that will make a Representative or Senator consider them ahead of the other voters who still reside in the United States.

The growing number of American expatriates renouncing their citizenship is starting to get attention, though
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank eddiejc1 for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 02.03.2015, 04:04
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,713
Groaned at 257 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 17,501 Times in 7,119 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
That's interesting... my experience is exactly the opposite. People I have had to explain the situation to mostly thought it was natural and right that US citizens should pay US taxes, had no idea that other countries tax on the basis of residency. In their view Switzerland is the one being rough on me by subjecting me to (potential) double taxation.
I can't imagine who you've been talking to -- presumably Swiss citizens who have never lived outside of Switzerland and never claimed VAT refunds for items purchased in the EU?

As is now well known by every EF reader, almost every country in the world levies income tax on its residents and not on its expatriate citizens. Anyone who has ever moved to another country has had to complete a local tax return (if they generate sufficient income), or has at least had tax deducted at source, so they know about local income tax. I find it astonishing and illogical that "most" people assume that people are taxed according to citizenship.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 02.03.2015, 05:16
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,751
Groaned at 226 Times in 190 Posts
Thanked 22,397 Times in 9,517 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
I can't imagine who you've been talking to -- presumably Swiss citizens who have never lived outside of Switzerland and never claimed VAT refunds for items purchased in the EU?

As is now well known by every EF reader, almost every country in the world levies income tax on its residents and not on its expatriate citizens. Anyone who has ever moved to another country has had to complete a local tax return (if they generate sufficient income), or has at least had tax deducted at source, so they know about local income tax. I find it astonishing and illogical that "most" people assume that people are taxed according to citizenship.
So if you want to avoid paying any tax, it is a good strategy to become stateless and then seek residence in the United States.

Or maybe not
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 02.03.2015, 07:32
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
I can't imagine who you've been talking to -- presumably Swiss citizens who have never lived outside of Switzerland and never claimed VAT refunds for items purchased in the EU?

As is now well known by every EF reader, almost every country in the world levies income tax on its residents and not on its expatriate citizens. Anyone who has ever moved to another country has had to complete a local tax return (if they generate sufficient income), or has at least had tax deducted at source, so they know about local income tax. I find it astonishing and illogical that "most" people assume that people are taxed according to citizenship.
She's talking about Americans she's spoken to.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 02.03.2015, 08:07
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,713
Groaned at 257 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 17,501 Times in 7,119 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
She's talking about Americans she's spoken to.
The 90% who have never left the USA and have no clue how the rest of the world works?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 02.03.2015, 11:53
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,986
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
As is now well known by every EF reader, almost every country in the world levies income tax on its residents and not on its expatriate citizens. Anyone who has ever moved to another country has had to complete a local tax return (if they generate sufficient income), or has at least had tax deducted at source, so they know about local income tax. I find it astonishing and illogical that "most" people assume that people are taxed according to citizenship.
but isn't this the whole problem to begin with? I fully agree that it would be stupid of a US citizen moving to another country not to know that they will have to pay taxes in their new home country based on residency. why is it any less stupid, however, to knowingly be a citizen of another country without knowing the tax obligations that come with citizenship?



people can certainly complain until the cows come home that the US philosophy of granting citizenship based upon location of birth is outdated and less than practical in a global environment, and they have my sympathy since I candidly agree with them. but complaining and pushing for change of a law is much different than trying to excuse ignorance of, and non-compliance with, the law in the first place.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 02.03.2015, 13:20
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,713
Groaned at 257 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 17,501 Times in 7,119 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
but isn't this the whole problem to begin with? I fully agree that it would be stupid of a US citizen moving to another country not to know that they will have to pay taxes in their new home country based on residency. why is it any less stupid, however, to knowingly be a citizen of another country without knowing the tax obligations that come with citizenship?



people can certainly complain until the cows come home that the US philosophy of granting citizenship based upon location of birth is outdated and less than practical in a global environment, and they have my sympathy since I candidly agree with them. but complaining and pushing for change of a law is much different than trying to excuse ignorance of, and non-compliance with, the law in the first place.
You lost me a bit there. This bit: "to knowingly be a citizen of another country without knowing the tax obligations that come with citizenship" -- who are you referring to there? People who become citizens of another country -- i.e. people who add a citizenship?

Also this bit: "the US philosophy of granting citizenship based upon location of birth is outdated" -- I think the issue is not so much the US "granting" citizenship, but enforcing it ( la Boris Johnson). And who was trying to excuse ignorance of the US tax law?

Genuinely confused here.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 02.03.2015, 13:52
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,986
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
You lost me a bit there. This bit: "to knowingly be a citizen of another country without knowing the tax obligations that come with citizenship" -- who are you referring to there? People who become citizens of another country -- i.e. people who add a citizenship?

Also this bit: "the US philosophy of granting citizenship based upon location of birth is outdated" -- I think the issue is not so much the US "granting" citizenship, but enforcing it ( la Boris Johnson). And who was trying to excuse ignorance of the US tax law?

Genuinely confused here.
the recent rise in complaints regarding US tax law invariably comes from EU nationals having dual US citizenship, often because they were born in the US. these complaints have nothing to do at all with the US enforcing its citizenship laws, or even enforcing its tax laws, since the only thing that has changed in the last 50+ years is the implementation of FATCA, which compels non-US banks to disclose financial information regarding the accounts and assets of US citizens. in other words, all that has changed is that non-US banks must now disclose more or less the same information that those US citizens should have already been disclosing. the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from this situation and the resulting complaints is that either those EU nationals having dual US citizenship (a) knew of their obligation to disclose financial information and pay taxes in the US, and simply elected not to do so, or (b) were ignorant of their obligations as US citizens.

I am likewise genuinely confused as to the Boris Johnson reference - by all accounts, he has always known that he held US citizenship. using phrases like "accidental birth" 50 years later and over 3 decades after the age of emancipation seems a little disingenuous to me, at best.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 02.03.2015, 14:17
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,751
Groaned at 226 Times in 190 Posts
Thanked 22,397 Times in 9,517 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

I was recently reading an article about the large numbers of affluent Asian mothers coming to the US to give birth, in the belief that giving their sprogs a US passport is giving them a head start in life.

They may have a shock coming their way.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #75  
Old 09.03.2015, 12:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Aargau
Posts: 2,462
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 3,316 Times in 1,493 Posts
Mullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
Technically, except for American expatriates from D.C., Puerto Rico, or the other American territories, there is representation. If you were registered to vote from Podunk, Iowa before you came to Switzerland, they are still your representative and you can vote him or her out of office? But practically, you're right. I don't think there are enough registered voters in any one congressional district that will make a Representative or Senator consider them ahead of the other voters who still reside in the United States.

The growing number of American expatriates renouncing their citizenship is starting to get attention, though
As you allude to, there is a difference between having the right to vote and being represented. Most, but not all, US citizens abroad should be able to vote but are not really represented. France, as an example, has special representatives in its parliament representing the French diaspora.

Meanwhile, while Obama treats overseas Americans like dog pooh, his government launched an initiative in late January to woo the Indian diaspora in the US as a way to increase trade between the US and India:

The UK Guardian:
"Obama enlists help of Indian diaspora in US to bolster stronger economic ties White House announces new fund to channel investment and believes thriving Indian community in US could be key to unlocking greater economic integration
The three million-strong Indian American diaspora in the US is being enlisted to help kickstart relatively lacklustre economic ties between the two countries.

Despite all the political warmth surrounding Barack Obama’s visit to Delhi this week, India is the source of only 2% of American imports and the destination of only 1% of its exports.
But the White House believes the thriving Indian community in the US could be the key to unlocking greater economic integration and has announced a new fund to channel investment to parts of India’s economy most in need of development."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ican-community
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 09.03.2015, 14:38
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Aargau
Posts: 2,462
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 3,316 Times in 1,493 Posts
Mullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
Technically, except for American expatriates from D.C., Puerto Rico, or the other American territories, there is representation. If you were registered to vote from Podunk, Iowa before you came to Switzerland, they are still your representative and you can vote him or her out of office? But practically, you're right.
Podunk, Iowa is a fictitious town but, as an example, I placed it in the 1st Congressional District, Iowa, represented by Rod Blum, a Democrat. I then went to his website and discovered that I can contact him only if I have a zip code in his district. Here it is:


Send Me An Email

I value all feedback from residents of my district. Please enter your zip code below to continue:

Zip: +4:

https://blum.house.gov/contact/email

In other words, if you don't live in his congressional district, he is not contactable via email. So much for wanting to represent me while living abroad.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Mullhollander for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 10.03.2015, 11:30
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 155
Groaned at 7 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 160 Times in 73 Posts
DuePonte has no particular reputation at present
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
The real reason that the State Department wants to register children born abroad to Americans is to add to their pedophile wish-list. A senior State Department official, responsible for counter-terrorism, was arrested yesterday for soliciting sex from a child:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...ex-from-minor/
It is well-known that the State Department has more than its share of heavy drinkers and apparently pedophiles. From this news story, sadistic murderers could be added:
  • Byron Smith, a 65-year-old retiree who once set up security in American embassies for the U.S. State Department, shot Nick Brady, 17, and Haile Kifer, 18
  • The recordings capture the shocking moment Smith taunts Kifer just before he shoots her, saying, 'You're dying, b****'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-basement.html

Common sense should tell us to keep a safe distance from State Department employees.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank DuePonte for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 10.03.2015, 12:33
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Coppet
Posts: 11
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
alt2006 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Definitely something to consider if you have other citizenship--- The English grandparents of an English boy born in the US (and has both American and British passports) opened a savings or some sort of trust account for him in the UK. Only to receive a letter from the IRS demanding they file. How did the IRS even find them!?! I believe they have since changed the name on the account so it is no longer in the (American) grandson's name.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank alt2006 for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 11.03.2015, 07:59
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
It is well-known that the State Department has more than its share of heavy drinkers and apparently pedophiles. From this news story, sadistic murderers could be added:
  • Byron Smith, a 65-year-old retiree who once set up security in American embassies for the U.S. State Department, shot Nick Brady, 17, and Haile Kifer, 18
  • The recordings capture the shocking moment Smith taunts Kifer just before he shoots her, saying, 'You're dying, b****'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-basement.html

Common sense should tell us to keep a safe distance from State Department employees.
Little Falls, Minnesota has a population of 8,200 and was the hometown of Charles Lindbergh, the aviator, and Robert Bilka, winner of the 2012 Nobel Prize for Chemistry. Quite an accomplishment for such a small town. Now, thanks to his outstanding State Department training, it is also the home of Byron Smith, a cold-blooded murderer of two teens.

This article from Minnesota Public Radio mentions that State Department employees are: "routinely reassessed to ensure they are capable of handling stressful and sometimes dangerous work and to detect any new security risks, Davnie said. "It's a significant check-up, and this guy seemed to be, I'm sure, stable and responsible and technically competent at the time," he said. "

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2012/11...rrorists-spies

Notwithstanding the State Department's periodic mental evaluation of its employees - which obviously failed in the case of Byron Smith - it would seem a good idea to keep yourself and your children away from the perverts, drunkards and murderers who work for the State Department and at the American embassy and consulate in Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 11.03.2015, 08:30
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Aargau
Posts: 2,462
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 3,316 Times in 1,493 Posts
Mullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond reputeMullhollander has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tax Axis of Evil: America, Eritrea & N. Korea

Quote:
View Post
It is well-known that the State Department has more than its share of heavy drinkers and apparently pedophiles. From this news story, sadistic murderers could be added.

Common sense should tell us to keep a safe distance from State Department employees.
State Department employees are creepier than Bill Cosby. Could a "no contact" restraining order be obtained so that their Bern, Geneva and Zurich employees couldn't make contact with normal people in Switzerland?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mullhollander for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
fatca, irs




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe - We didn't start the fire, lalalalalal PlantHead International affairs/politics 10 20.05.2010 22:47
Sick of America Bashing [and other thoughts about America] TheSpouse Complaints corner 569 24.10.2009 13:03
Bicycle: Axis of evil! Treverus Transportation/driving 4 16.02.2008 13:43


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0