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  #81  
Old 15.10.2016, 23:01
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

No, dual from birth doesn't count as a relinquishment. There has to be intention to lose citizenship. You can't do that if you're dual from birth.

Here are the ways you can relinquish/renounce your citizenship:

Potentially Expatriating Acts

Section 349 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. nationals are subject to loss of nationality if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality. Briefly stated, these acts include:
1.obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon one's own application after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
2.taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or its political subdivisions after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
3.entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the United States or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
4.accepting employment with a foreign government after the age of 18 if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
5.formally renouncing U.S. nationality before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
6.formally renouncing U.S. nationality within the United States (The Department of Homeland Security is responsible for implementing this section of the law) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
7.conviction for an act of treason against the Government of the United States or for attempting to force to overthrow the Government of the United States (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...tionality.html

Number 5 is the renunciation, the rest are considered relinqishments. If done without the intent to lose citizenship then it isn't lost, but if you do it with intent then that is grounds for applying for a relinquishment. Some people, when applying for a second citizenship will prepare a document for the person overseeing their oath taking to sign to say they did it with the intent to lose their US citizenship.

For a relinquishment you'd be asked to fill in the following form to help the embassy/consulate staff decide whether or not you have done so. Unfortunately, it's more designed to help those people who may have committed an expatriating act without intending to lose their citizenship rather than for those who do intend to so.

https://eforms.state.gov/editdocumen...documentid=240

Here is an example from Isaac Brock Society's website of the intent to relinquish by gaining another citizenship:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/...ce-if-you-can/

But unless you've done one or more of the other 6 possibilities you can't relinquish, you can only renounce.
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  #82  
Old 16.10.2016, 09:27
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

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No, dual from birth doesn't count as a relinquishment. There has to be intention to lose citizenship. You can't do that if you're dual from birth.

Here are the ways you can relinquish/renounce your citizenship:

Potentially Expatriating Acts

Section 349 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. nationals are subject to loss of nationality if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality. Briefly stated, these acts include:
1.obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon one's own application after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
2.taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or its political subdivisions after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
3.entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the United States or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
4.accepting employment with a foreign government after the age of 18 if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
5.formally renouncing U.S. nationality before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
6.formally renouncing U.S. nationality within the United States (The Department of Homeland Security is responsible for implementing this section of the law) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
7.conviction for an act of treason against the Government of the United States or for attempting to force to overthrow the Government of the United States (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...tionality.html

Number 5 is the renunciation, the rest are considered relinqishments. If done without the intent to lose citizenship then it isn't lost, but if you do it with intent then that is grounds for applying for a relinquishment. Some people, when applying for a second citizenship will prepare a document for the person overseeing their oath taking to sign to say they did it with the intent to lose their US citizenship.

For a relinquishment you'd be asked to fill in the following form to help the embassy/consulate staff decide whether or not you have done so. Unfortunately, it's more designed to help those people who may have committed an expatriating act without intending to lose their citizenship rather than for those who do intend to so.

https://eforms.state.gov/editdocumen...documentid=240

Here is an example from Isaac Brock Society's website of the intent to relinquish by gaining another citizenship:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/...ce-if-you-can/

But unless you've done one or more of the other 6 possibilities you can't relinquish, you can only renounce.
Thank you Medea! (where is the thank you button ?? Newbie..)
- Would marrying a Swiss citizen (one year ago) and completing a Swiss citizenship class count as "intent"? I have a document proving I attended the class but have not yet started the process of citizenship request, although I do qualify (Permit C). I was hoping to ask for it after three years of marriage, which is a simpler and cheaper process.
- Also: I've read somewhere that renouncing would "raise flags" ask to one's motives (although I would be filing before to catch up; and after to exit the system)... Just rumors?
- Any idea what the renounciation waiting time is in Bern?
Thank you and have a lovely Sunday!
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  #83  
Old 16.10.2016, 10:30
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Gaining Swiss citizenship will, marriage and the class don't. Under 1 in the list you have to obtain a new citizenship, that is the expatriating act.

So you have two choices: start filing tax returns while you wait to enter the process to gain Swiss citizenship and then relinquish when you're able to or renounce now and do the necessary filing. If you wait to relinquish then that means you'd be up to date with your filings if you use Streamlined when you do get an appointment at the embassy, but it also means you'll be in the system for at least 3 years - 2 while you wait to apply for the citizenship and probably another year while the process is completed then you apply for the relinquishment. So it depends on how quickly you want to shed your citizenship. Also be careful about joint accounts, if you have these your spouse is going to have to file too. Keep everything separate until you shed the US citizenship.

Renouncing needs no reasons to be given (well relinquishment doesn't either really, but they sometimes ask - just say you want to simplify your life). It's your right under the US Constitution to renounce and you don't have to tell anyone why you're doing it. The page from the Bern embassy has more info:

https://bern.usembassy.gov/service/renunciation.html

There is also a PDF link which contains more info and also the various forms for a renunciation/relinquishment. They say they are scheduling appointments approximately 2 weeks in advance on a first come, first served basis.

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  #84  
Old 16.10.2016, 17:05
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Thank you Medea, your comments are very useful and have helped me finalize my decision. I see others on the blog have thanked you for me
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  #85  
Old 16.10.2016, 17:32
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

You're welcome and let us know how it goes. Reports of how long it takes to get an appointment, attitude of the consular staff, etc, all help for those who may follow you down the path of renunciation/relinquishment. I found the staff at Bern very helpful when I was going through the process.
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  #86  
Old 08.03.2017, 15:14
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I've sent inquiries to H&R Block expat services and to US Tax & Financial Services in Zürich. I will gladly inform the forum of my experiences with these institutions.
And to get the US Embassy in Bern process engaged, requested the Informational Packet for Renounciation. I'll track duration times here too, although to be fair, the I'll remove the time I take to decide when I do it.
Hi,
I am also going through the same thing. Can you tell me how much H&R block costed you for the streamline procedure and if you went with them. Most accountants I talked to wanted 8-10 000. The procedure is simple, as long as you have filed before and you know how to file a normal tax return,which I dont. Plus I gave up my green card so no point in learning now.

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Yes, age is no barrier to FBAR reporting for Americans abroad.

For Streamlined you need to file 6 years of FBARs. But by all means argue the point. 2009 to 2014 would do just as well to meet the requirement and you'll be doing 2014 soon anyway so to me it should count. What I'm not clear on is whether Streamlined HAS to be all back years in which case 2014 couldn't count and you'd have to include the 2008 figures. For the returns you only need 3 years so to me (again) it should be 2011, 2012 and 2013 for Streamlined.
Streamline has all delinquent tax year, which should be 3. I just talked to IRS. They called me back.
Now is march 2017 and 2016 is not delinquent yet. I need to do 2016 normal and 2013,2014,2015 under the Streamlined. The only filing difference is that you need to write on top with red that it is for the streamline procedure and also include the cover letter.

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Seems odd as I think they are the biggest tax preparers in the US, they do 24,500,000 tax returns a year.
I contacted them and I got an email with an e calendar to chose the time and date. Maybe your email when into spam. I will talk to them tonight and report back.
There is another company that seem to offer "cheap" streamline
https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com...ng-procedures/
They say its 1450 but I think one document is extra or you can do it on your own.

If you own back delinquent taxes and its too much the IRS lady told me I can file 432A with a cover letter explaining how I want the installments to be.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 08.03.2017 at 18:37. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #87  
Old 08.03.2017, 16:07
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

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Streamline has all delinquent tax year, which should be 3. I just talked to IRS. They called me back.
Now is march 2017 and 2016 is not delinquent yet. I need to do 2016 normal and 2013,2014,2015 under the Streamlined. The only filing difference is that you need to write on top with red that it is for the streamline procedure and also include the cover letter.
Don't forget the 6 years of FBARs as well.

How did you give up your Green Card? Did you do it properly by filling in and filing an I-407 form? Because if you didn't you haven't given it up.

Also remember that to exit the US tax system cleanly via the 8854 form you need to file 5 years of tax returns, not the 3 that Streamlined requires to become compliant. You can add the extra couple of years to the Streamlined, there's no problem in doing that.
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  #88  
Old 08.03.2017, 16:18
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Thank you for the reply. Yes, i submited I-407 with the embassy. I didnt even have to go in. It took 2 weeks. I called back IRS. Its strange the person from IRS didnt say anything about it considering i explained everything. Im hoping i dont have to file 5 years back which could save me some money. Ill post back once i get a call back.
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  #89  
Old 08.03.2017, 16:33
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

You must if you want to exit the US tax system. Form 8854 requires 5 years of filing. If you don't file the form you don't leave the system, simple as that.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
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  #90  
Old 08.03.2017, 16:44
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Are these 5 years, the delinquent years?
In my case
I file 2016-normal - only until the date I gave up my green card
Streamline 2015,2014,2013

If I file 5 years, is it:
a)2016 - normal - only until the date I gave up my green card and 2015, 2014, 2013 and 2012 under streamline
or
b) 2016 - normal - only until the date I gave up my green card and 2015, 2014, 2013 and 2012, 2011 under streamline

Meaning, does the partial non delinquent year count towards the 8854 years?

It is written that:
Because you failed to certify that you
were tax compliant for the five years
preceding expatriation, you are subject
to section 877 and the 10-year period
under which you are subject to section
877(b) begins after you file your Form
8854

I think that means I need to file taxes for the whole 2016 and also for 2017 until I submit 8854. I dont really understand being subject to 877 and 877b)
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  #91  
Old 08.03.2017, 17:21
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

b) I'm afraid. You can't file for 2017 because you're no longer a US citizen after the date you gave up your Green Card.

And note that if you gave up your Green Card in 2016 you only have until June 15th 2017 to get everything filed, including the 8854 form. So get a move on!

The 877 thing would only apply if you meet the income and wealth figures.

Covered expatriate.
You are a covered expatriate if you expatriated after June 16, 2008, and any of the following statements apply.

1. Your average annual net income tax liability for the 5 tax years ending before the date of expatriation is more than the amount listed next.
a. $139,000 for 2008.
b. $145,000 for 2009.
c. $145,000 for 2010.
d. $147,000 for 2011.
e. $151,000 for 2012.
f. $155,000 for 2013.
g. $157,000 for 2014.
h. $160,000 for 2015.
i. $161,000 for 2016.

2. Your net worth was $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation

3. You fail to certify on Form 8854 that you have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of your expatriation.
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  #92  
Old 08.03.2017, 17:33
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Doing this research and talking to irs and tax people is "getting a move on"

I think I have two corrections to what you said.

"The 877 thing would only apply if you meet the income and wealth figures." IRS says between 1, 2 and 3 its an "or" relationship, meaning that if I fail number 3 I a Covered expatriate. I did not file 8854 when I gave up my green card, therefore I failed number 3. That means that I am liable for taxes until I submit 8854 or if IRS doesnt disagrees, 10 years after because I am a long-term resident.

If I do b) 2016 - normal - only until the date I gave up my green card and 2015, 2014, 2013 and 2012, 2011 under streamline

it means that I need to file for the whole year 2016 and then next year, in 2018, I need to file for 2017 up until I filed my 8854.

Do you agree with this statement?
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  #93  
Old 08.03.2017, 18:07
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Yes, if you don't file the 8854 you will be a covered expatriate, even if you don't meet the other conditions. How that may or may not affect you depends on your individual circumstances.

You have until the June 15th of the year following giving up your Green Card. So if you gave it up in 2016 you have until June 15th this year to get it filed.

No, you only file up to the date you gave up your card. Opinion is divided on whether you need to file just the partial 2016 or whether you need to do the whole year, people do it both ways depending on what they feel like. Personally I can't see any reason why you'd need to file a US tax return for any part of the year when you were no longer a citizen. But if you feel happier filing the whole year then do so.
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Old 08.03.2017, 18:35
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

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You have until the June 15th of the year following giving up your Green Card. So if you gave it up in 2016 you have until June 15th this year to get it filed.
This is great news. Did I thank you for putting in the effort to answer all my questions? You are an angel.
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  #95  
Old 08.03.2017, 18:54
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Not a problem c_ralu. If I can help some other poor soul caught up in the US tax mess I'm happy to try.
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Old 08.03.2017, 21:38
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

I presume for the last year Fbar the deadline is april and there is no way to do it later, before June. Is this correct?
Tx
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  #97  
Old 08.03.2017, 22:34
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

The filing date was changed from its original June date to 15th April. But there's an automatic 6 month extension to 15th October (which you don't have to ask for). So you have until that October date to file them. They have to be done electronically these days.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small...-accounts-fbar
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  #98  
Old 09.03.2017, 00:54
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

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Are these 5 years, the delinquent years?
In my case
I file 2016-normal - only until the date I gave up my green card
Streamline 2015,2014,2013

If I file 5 years, is it:
a)2016 - normal - only until the date I gave up my green card and 2015, 2014, 2013 and 2012 under streamline
or
b) 2016 - normal - only until the date I gave up my green card and 2015, 2014, 2013 and 2012, 2011 under streamline

Meaning, does the partial non delinquent year count towards the 8854 years?

It is written that:
Because you failed to certify that you
were tax compliant for the five years
preceding expatriation, you are subject
to section 877 and the 10-year period
under which you are subject to section
877(b) begins after you file your Form
8854

I think that means I need to file taxes for the whole 2016 and also for 2017 until I submit 8854. I dont really understand being subject to 877 and 877b)
Some tax people are saying:
Stream line 2012,2013,2014,2014 - 4 years stream line and 2016 non delinquent, a total of 5 years..
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Old 09.03.2017, 08:36
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Can't advise further on that. I only needed to file FBARs when I dealt with all this and filed the required 6 years via Streamlined after I renounced in March 2013, then filed the final FBAR and 8854 in June 2014. As you have a Green Card you might be fine doing it the way they suggest.
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Old 09.03.2017, 12:06
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Re: US-CH citizen: tax compliance and renounce vs. relinquish US citizenship

Im getting different responses from tax services so ill wait for IRS to call me back.
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