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  #61  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:42
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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But they do it for FREE! Which brings us full circle! How do they do it?
because the customer pays for it?
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  #62  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:44
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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But they do it for FREE! Which brings us full circle! How do they do it?

*** RANT ALERT ***
There you go, next time read the previous posts before you start disagreeing with people. Most of the times you are right on the money, this time it's disappointing to see you post without understanding what the product is and what others have said before and then post to say that you agree with another post that says exactly what I said a few posts earlier.

*** END RANT ***
Nobody ever does anything for free, do you believe in Father Christmas too?
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  #63  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:48
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

Not sure what is complicated. Whatever the customer pays, will be at least what the company pays. I'm not sure why you assume that the company gets currency at a certain rate and then charges the customer less than that. It doesn't make sense.
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  #64  
Old 21.09.2015, 17:17
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

You guys are having me on right?


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It your getting a live rate, that's what your getting, they are not hedging as would cost money. If the demand is not there, the price falls that's how a market works.
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Here we go fatman is back!
Do you know they're not hedging or do you want to qualify that with something like "In my opinion"??

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I think you two have got the wrong end of the stick here. Please read the information about the card and how it works before you start commenting on things you don't know about.

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Think of it like this, Optimal Payments have three pots of GBP, USD and EUR, as the customers exchange money those pots will go up and down and at given interval Optimal Payments will want to go back to the orginal three pots of money that they started off with. How do they do that? Well they have to enter a trade in the opposite direction of the net long / short currency that they find themselves with. This "hedging process" is not free and the exposure is there. If you two can't see it then hopefully you do now
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One entity or another will have an exposure to these customer FX transactions. The entity taking on the exposure will not take the exposure for no premium. That premium has to be passed on to the customer one way or another.
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Nobody ever does anything for free, do you believe in Father Christmas too?
No 5h!t! Sherlock!

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Not sure what is complicated. Whatever the customer pays, will be at least what the company pays.
.
That's what I've been bloody saying all along!

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I'm not sure why you assume that the company gets currency at a certain rate and then charges the customer less than that. It doesn't make sense.
What on earth makes you think I assumed that??? I am just saying that they do this for free for now, at least for the first 12 months! Because that's what they say they do! And that is why I was advising caution because if something sounds too good to be true then it probably is.

These guys are either taking a loss on purpose for promotional purposes and will eventually raise their fees after the promotional period ends or simply doing this for no additional mark up to the customer hence making this a very attractive product!

What the hell is happening on this forum!
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  #65  
Old 21.09.2015, 17:29
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card



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Whatever the customer pays, will be at least what the company pays.
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That's what I've been bloody saying all along!
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I'm not sure why you assume that the company gets currency at a certain rate and then charges the customer less than that. It doesn't make sense.
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What on earth makes you think I assumed that?
Because you then say this:

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These guys are either taking a loss on purpose
I'm saying the company doesn't incur a loss.
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  #66  
Old 21.09.2015, 17:38
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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I'm saying the company doesn't incur a loss.
I'm pretty sure the company doesn't set out to make a loss but... they will incur a loss if their costs of doing business are more than their net revenues.

The fact that they themselves hint at increasing fees in the future indicates that they might be doing things at a loss (at least for the time being) to gain market share.
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  #67  
Old 21.09.2015, 17:42
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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because the customer pays for it?
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I'm saying the company doesn't incur a loss.
If the company does NOT incur a loss, then why does the customer pay for it (which he doesn't because it's free?)

-->
I think we all agree that
  • the company does something (fx-ing client's funds),
  • for which the company might incur costs(?)
  • but does NOT (obviously) charge its customers at present.
So we are looking to answer:
  1. does the company actually NOT incur a loss OR
  2. do they actually charge customers in some sort of hidden way OR
  3. do they not charge customers now (for whatever reason), but will try to change their fees at a later stage
I think we're all talking about the same thing, just from different perspectives.
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  #68  
Old 21.09.2015, 18:24
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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If the company does NOT incur a loss, then why does the customer pay for it (which he doesn't because it's free?)

-->
I think we all agree that
  • the company does something (fx-ing client's funds),
  • for which the company might incur costs(?)
  • but does NOT (obviously) charge its customers at present.
So we are looking to answer:
  1. does the company actually NOT incur a loss OR
  2. do they actually charge customers in some sort of hidden way OR
  3. do they not charge customers now (for whatever reason), but will try to change their fees at a later stage
I think we're all talking about the same thing, just from different perspectives.
1. It doesn't incur a loss on FX
2. Yes
3. Who knows in the future, but they shouldn't need to.

The company probably does make a loss now due to overheads and not yet having scale.
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  #69  
Old 21.09.2015, 18:27
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

p.s. The Post Office also has zero commission FX. That's also FREE.
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Old 21.09.2015, 20:05
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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1. It doesn't incur a loss on FX
...............

The company probably does make a loss now due to overheads and not yet having scale.

The mind ****ing boggles!

So you basically have no idea but you state your opinions as if they were fact just to winde people up. Ok got it! My bad for taking you seriously!
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  #71  
Old 21.09.2015, 20:37
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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The mind ****ing boggles!

So you basically have no idea but you state your opinions as if they were fact just to winde people up. Ok got it! My bad for taking you seriously!
you can have no loss on the fx deal, but the company being in a loss position overall. not unusual when starting up. as i said. overheads and scale.

EDIT: to spell it out since this basic point is apparently not so easy to grasp. a 0.001% FX margin means profit on the FX deal, but with 100k office rent, you need sufficient scale for the fixed costs to be absorbed.
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Old 21.09.2015, 22:42
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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you can have no loss on the fx deal, but the company being in a loss position overall. not unusual when starting up. as i said. overheads and scale.

EDIT: to spell it out since this basic point is apparently not so easy to grasp. a 0.001% FX margin means profit on the FX deal, but with 100k office rent, you need sufficient scale for the fixed costs to be absorbed.
All that matters on the FX side is FX-RISK and PREMIUM. The rest is just common business sense.

What you don't seem to grasp is the RISK associated with allowing customers to change money at interbank rates for no appatent PREMIUM.

But let's not go around in circles. You just seem to think that this company have fully mitigated the FX-RISK somehow. Fair enough, I am just curious how they do that without affecting their bottom line. If you know how please enlighten us if you don't then please keep your business studies lectures to yourself.
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  #73  
Old 21.09.2015, 23:44
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

Update:

-Just made a £ purchase via paypal with the Revolut credit card; worked a dream.

-The card is registered in Switzerland. Have loaded the card twice from my UK-based VISA debit card, both without problems.

-A direct purchase on a UK-based site (delivery to UK, billing to my Swiss address where the card is registered) didnt work. But then again, I tried the purchase with my UK-based VISA debit, incl delivery to the same UK address where it's registered, and that also didnt work, so could have been something at the retailer side.
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  #74  
Old 22.09.2015, 08:23
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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All that matters on the FX side is FX-RISK and PREMIUM. The rest is just common business sense.

What you don't seem to grasp is the RISK associated with allowing customers to change money at interbank rates for no appatent PREMIUM.

But let's not go around in circles. You just seem to think that this company have fully mitigated the FX-RISK somehow. Fair enough, I am just curious how they do that without affecting their bottom line. If you know how please enlighten us if you don't then please keep your business studies lectures to yourself.
You're making plenty of snarky comments to others without actually explaining - why exactly is there FX-RISK?

They are not investing the funds, they don't care whether they go up or down relative to any other currency while they are in the holding account.

They seem to have enough backing to obtain the interbank rate, so there's no significant spread.

They are fully in control of the timing - they don't promise to match the rate precisely at the point of sale, only at the point of conversion in the account.
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  #75  
Old 22.09.2015, 08:32
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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You're making plenty of snarky comments to others without actually explaining - why exactly is there FX-RISK?

They are not investing the funds, they don't care whether they go up or down relative to any other currency while they are in the holding account.

They seem to have enough backing to obtain the interbank rate, so there's no significant spread.

They are fully in control of the timing - they don't promise to match the rate precisely at the point of sale, only at the point of conversion in the account.
Indeed.

Which takes us all the way back to my first comment:

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if they have no exposure, then they have no requirement to hedge and so won't incur any hedging costs. simples.
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  #76  
Old 22.09.2015, 09:42
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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You're making plenty of snarky comments to others without actually explaining - why exactly is there FX-RISK?
I have explained it at length in post #47

And Chris has summarized it nicely 10 posts later see: post #57

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They are not investing the funds, they don't care whether they go up or down relative to any other currency while they are in the holding account.
I never said anything otherwise regarding this. In fact as pointed out they probably earn a nice little bit of interest even though that's hardly worth talking about right now.

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They seem to have enough backing to obtain the interbank rate, so there's no significant spread.

They are fully in control of the timing - they don't promise to match the rate precisely at the point of sale, only at the point of conversion in the account.
They might have access to interbank FX rates. But bear in mind that there are minimum sizes (you can't just trade £100 @ interbank rate)

I'm talking about trading against the major Banks that provide liquidity in the major currency pairs / crossers.

So what does Revolut or whoever they feed the trades to do given that, I believe, they can not trade against the major bank for small sizes, they of course have to have an internal matching book, matching customer flow one against another @ interbank rates without feeding them externally.

In low periods of liquidity they just have to take the other side of the trade which leads to building a position in one currency or another.

When a significant position is built up they have to cross it externally.

This mechanism has inherent FX-RISK it's not bad, they just need to manage it well, managing it well means overheads which translates to costs that we all agree has to be passed on to the customer.

I think we have to leave it at this. This thread has been derailed too much already.

This is a good product offering convenience for people who otherwise would have to open a USD account, GBP account and EUR account which do not charge any commission and which do not mark up FX rates.

How do they do it? Let's just think of it as a magic box shall we. It just works, there are no risks and everyone should just get it and put all their money into it.
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  #77  
Old 22.09.2015, 11:16
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

So I wanted to test the physical card by paying something random.

I entered my PIN, which I changed into one that I can surely remember.

1st try: Wrong PIN
2nd try: Wrong PIN

Contacted support before messing everything. I was advised to log out of the app, and then log in again, as this triggers a full update of everything, including PIN.

Done that. Next & last try: Wrong PIN!

Literally 5 seconds later support chats to me: Your PIN is blocked. Give me
  • DOB
  • address and
  • the info when and how and in what amount the last top-up happened
This supposedly unblocked the PIN again - will check later today if it finally works now.


One detail, however, is totally illogical. I mentioned it to the support guy, I hope it's relayed to someone who can deal with this:
  • As a security measure, they asked for information of which 100% can be seen in the app: DOB & address can be seen under "profile", the info when the last top-up happened can be found in the account history.
  • The immediate answer of the support agent to my objection was: "We have to verify if it's really you, what if someone steals your passcode"
  • Well - if someone steals my passcode the same person can see all information directly in the app, as per above, so this is not security, it's more like an idiocy-test.

Last edited by ChrisNeedsToKnow; 22.09.2015 at 11:32.
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  #78  
Old 22.09.2015, 12:04
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

I did the same and bought my lunch with it. I didn't change my pin in case I have the same problem.

The money was taken out from the GBP balance as expected since it's the biggest balance and I have no USD.

The transaction happened at 11:47 and the interbank trades were happening around 1.5057 for the GBPCHF crosser. The app recorded 1.5046 so around 10pips mark up which is peanuts for such a small transaction.

All in all very satisfied! A few wrinkles to iron out but this will be sorted out with time and a bit of patience from customers.
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Old 22.09.2015, 13:48
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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I did the same and bought my lunch with it. I didn't change my pin in case I have the same problem.

The money was taken out from the GBP balance as expected since it's the biggest balance and I have no USD.

The transaction happened at 11:47 and the interbank trades were happening around 1.5057 for the GBPCHF crosser. The app recorded 1.5046 so around 10pips mark up which is peanuts for such a small transaction.

All in all very satisfied! A few wrinkles to iron out but this will be sorted out with time and a bit of patience from customers.
Possibly they just made a trade at 'best', prices change by the second a minute is a long time & many trades will take place at different prices during that minute, so they may or may not be doing what they say you will never know.

If they are taking positions they will likely go bankrupt.
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Old 22.09.2015, 14:10
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Re: Multi Currency Credit Card

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Possibly they just made a trade at 'best', prices change by the second a minute is a long time & many trades will take place at different prices during that minute, so they may or may not be doing what they say you will never know.
I checked all quotes between 11:46:00 and 11:47:59 on Bloomberg and the consolidated offer was never below 1.5053 with a high of 1.5059. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they're taking the other side of the trade.

Any market order or "at best" as you put it in the interbank market wouldn't have been filled for below 1.5053. and in any case they're not gonna put a market order for a sandwich from Migros in the live FX market.

Anyway it looks like I made a tidy profit as the quote is now 1.5035

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If they are taking positions they will likely go bankrupt.
As I said before taking the other side of customer trades is not a bad thing. They just need to manage their risk well.
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