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Old 26.10.2016, 23:27
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Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

I live in ch, c-permit not taxed at source anymore. I wanted to try to see if I have understood the wealth/property tax principles of Geneve - if anyone could bring confirm/reject below thinking


Assets:
Apartment in UK worth 500$M , mortgage 200$M
Apartment in France worth 400$M, mortgage 300$M
House in Switzerland worth 2000$M, mortgage 1600$M
Cash assets Switzerland 100$M
Cash assets UK 100$M


Hence, my net wealth is 1000$M


If I understand correctly I should declare this but Swiss wealth tax is not applicable on non-Suisse property so my taxed wealth will be 600$M and the tax rate would be around 0.5% = 3$M


If I sell my non-Swiss property and convert into cash my taxed wealth will be 1000$M and I would pay 5$M in wealth tax per year.


Did I understand this principle right? Any other key costs/charges/taxes considerations in such situation?
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Old 26.10.2016, 23:42
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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Hence, my net wealth is 1000$M
With that kind of cash you don't really need answers from an anonymous internet forum, just let your in-house lawyers handle it

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but Swiss wealth tax is not applicable on non-Suisse property
But it is. Wealth tax is on all your global assets. Swiss income tax on the other hand is indeed limited to your Swiss income, but the rate is determined by your global net income. The more you earn abroard, the steeper will your Swiss income be taxed here.
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Old 26.10.2016, 23:45
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

I don't think you know what a million is.
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Old 26.10.2016, 23:50
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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I don't think you know what a million is.
You don't have to know anything when you have a billion
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Old 27.10.2016, 00:06
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

Ok sure that was fun... :P


The purpose of my post was to see if I understood the principle right or not and I tried to make it more concrete with some digits it doesn't reflect anything real... (I am used to writing $M as thousands of dollars)


I am surprised because I have seen in more than one place that non-swiss property value is not included in the "net wealth" for wealth taxation in Switzerland... but the replies so far seems to be different
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Old 27.10.2016, 03:07
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

Wealth tax is paid on all your global net wealth, at least for ordinary tax assessment. Maybe there are some small variations between cantons, but I think nowhere are foreign properties excluded from wealth taxation. I don't really know anything specific about GE, sorry. In ZH, it's certainly so. And they even compute Eigenmietwert from unrented properties and add it to your global income as if you rented them out. You don't pay tax directly on it of course, but it costs you a pretty penny still in increased tax rates on the swiss income.

If you're rich enough and don't work, you might be able to get a better deal through a pauschal tax assessment, some cantons don't calculate wealth tax in that case.

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I am surprised because I have seen in more than one place that non-swiss property value is not included in the "net wealth"
Name one.
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Old 27.10.2016, 03:22
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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I am used to writing $M as thousands of dollars
M stands for a million in the metric system we're using here in Europe.
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Old 27.10.2016, 07:24
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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M stands for a million in the metric system we're using here in Europe.
And you could use k for thousands, also understood here
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Old 27.10.2016, 08:42
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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I am used to writing $M as thousands of dollars
In which language?

Tom
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Old 27.10.2016, 09:03
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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In which language?

Tom
My guess is that living in Geneva, he picked it from French "Mille".
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Old 27.10.2016, 09:05
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

I assume it's similar in all the cantons, but here in Fribourg:

Value of Swiss property according to what the canton decides based on the forms I filled in when initially including it on the return. Theoretical rental value of said property, again decided by the canton. First goes in the wealth column, the second in the income column.

Value of foreign properties - good guess at current market value, you don't actually need to get an estimate from a real estate agent. Theoretical rental value of said properties - not sure if you do this or the canton will work out based on what they decide is its rentable value. Same columns for these.

Offset against all the above - all the mortgages and any interest. Mortgages against wealth, interest in income.

Best to contact the Geneva tax office and have them go over things with you to make sure you get it right. They'll be cheaper than an accountant.
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Old 27.10.2016, 09:47
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

This link explains Swiss taxes on foreign property:

http://www.aurenum.ch/pdf/BaZ%20Arti...Feb%202014.pdf

Swiss law makes a distinction between foreign real estate and foreign financial assets owned by a taxpayer in Switzerland. This link says:

"Die Bezahlung der lokalen Immobiliensteuern entbindet nicht von der Deklaration der Liegenschaft sowie allfälliger Mieterträge in der schweizerischen Steuererklärung. Die hiesige Steuer behörde muss die entsprechenden Werte kennen, um den Eigentümer mit den korrekten Steuersätzen des Gesamtvermögens sowie -einkommens zu erfassen. Es wird jedoch weder der Liegenschaftswert der ausländischen Immobilie, noch der entsprechende Eigenmietwert im Inland besteuert."

To summarize, you need to declare the value of your foreign real estate and any rental income from it on your Swiss cantonal tax return. This will allow the Swiss cantonal tax authorities to determine the proper tax rates. However, neither the value of the foreign real estate nor the "own-rent" will be taxed in Switzerland, according to this article.
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Old 27.10.2016, 11:41
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

Seriously, you can't afford a decent tax advisor?

Here's mine. Her name is Patricia. She speaks English. You'll get the correct answers from her.

http://www.fiduciaireppc.com/
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Old 27.10.2016, 11:43
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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This link explains Swiss taxes on foreign property:

http://www.aurenum.ch/pdf/BaZ%20Arti...Feb%202014.pdf

Swiss law makes a distinction between foreign real estate and foreign financial assets owned by a taxpayer in Switzerland. This link says:

"Die Bezahlung der lokalen Immobiliensteuern entbindet nicht von der Deklaration der Liegenschaft sowie allfälliger Mieterträge in der schweizerischen Steuererklärung. Die hiesige Steuer behörde muss die entsprechenden Werte kennen, um den Eigentümer mit den korrekten Steuersätzen des Gesamtvermögens sowie -einkommens zu erfassen. Es wird jedoch weder der Liegenschaftswert der ausländischen Immobilie, noch der entsprechende Eigenmietwert im Inland besteuert."

To summarize, you need to declare the value of your foreign real estate and any rental income from it on your Swiss cantonal tax return. This will allow the Swiss cantonal tax authorities to determine the proper tax rates. However, neither the value of the foreign real estate nor the "own-rent" will be taxed in Switzerland, according to this article.
Or better summarized! Because you have non-liquid assets (real estate) out side of Switzerland, you are going to pay a higher rate on your taxable assets.
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Old 27.10.2016, 13:07
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

As the value and income from abroad go to increase your Swiss tax rate, unless you don't earn much you're effectively taxed on your foreign affairs.
My UK income is effectively taxed at about 30%. I also pay a few thou in wealth tax based upon my UK assets.
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Old 27.10.2016, 13:21
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

I'm wondering whether people here really didn't get that $M meant thousands and not millions? Or whether they did and just wanted to bitch?
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Old 27.10.2016, 13:27
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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I'm wondering whether people here really didn't get that $M meant thousands and not millions? Or whether they did and just wanted to bitch?
I didn't. I've never seen it before. Spending most of my life in the UK and now here it's been thousands written out proper ($12,000) and more recently "k" ($12k).

Can't see how $M comes to mean thousands in the first place. Obvious jump to assume million to me.
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Old 27.10.2016, 13:35
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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I didn't. I've never seen it before. Spending most of my life in the UK and now here it's been thousands written out proper ($12,000) and more recently "k" ($12k).

Can't see how $M comes to mean thousands in the first place. Obvious jump to assume million to me.
Same for me. I was trying to work out what it actually meant.
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Old 27.10.2016, 13:58
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

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Can't see how $M comes to mean thousands in the first place. Obvious jump to assume million to me.
According to the free dictionary

$M
Acronym Definition
$M Dollars in Millions

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/$M
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Old 27.10.2016, 18:44
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Re: Wealth/Property Tax i/e foreign property

Thanks guys for your helpful input, some very useful and exactly what I needed - not sure where all the smart-ass comments kept getting nourished from but I assume it is self mirroring more than anything.
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