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  #21  
Old 10.01.2017, 11:59
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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I was already calculating that, not having to pay the rent, she could save about 40'000 per year.
Hmm, by owning we save about 13000/year (with 35% down).

How did you get 40000?

Tom
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  #22  
Old 10.01.2017, 12:15
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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I was thinking if, with the current low interest rates, it would be wise to buy a flat for 1'000'000 and take a fixed mortgage for 15 years. I do not want to advise her something risky. But I thought that having a mortgage, you can use the tax deductions and benefit from the low fixed rate. If, in 15 years, extending the mortgage would become too expensive, you would be able to pay it off, even with an average salary.
I have a question on this part of the original post. You mention about paying off the mortgage after 15 years, but (from my limited knowledge of the subject) I understand that in Switzerland it's generally a bad idea to fully pay off a mortgage. The reason is that the tax for fully owning a property is higher than the mortgage payments would be.

Just wondering if someone more knowledgeable could chime in on this. I'm also a home owner and this is what I've been advised.
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Old 10.01.2017, 12:25
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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The owners of build-able land are not building on it as it more than retains its' value without a building on it !

The land is their, in zones for building, however you cannot force people to build on land if they don't want too.
But you can encourage it. Simply put a quota on buildings and then open up more land to build, you don't build in time, then you lose out to people who develop their land more quickly.
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  #24  
Old 10.01.2017, 12:28
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

Tax (on Eigenmietwert or rent income) and mortgage are totally independent. You always pay tax, mortgage or not, it's not capped or floored by mortgage payments in any way, so no reason to think that two are related.

There's a different tax advantage to mortgage, as well as to any sort of debt in general: it's tax deductible from income taxes. Which essentially means that the effective mortgage rate that you pay post taxes is lower by your marginal income tax rate, and that's all.

It is a very cheap source of a lot of money currently, which you can reinvest far more profitably elsewhere, that's why you might not want to repay.
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Old 10.01.2017, 12:41
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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I have a question on this part of the original post. You mention about paying off the mortgage after 15 years, but (from my limited knowledge of the subject) I understand that in Switzerland it's generally a bad idea to fully pay off a mortgage. The reason is that the tax for fully owning a property is higher than the mortgage payments would be.

Just wondering if someone more knowledgeable could chime in on this. I'm also a home owner and this is what I've been advised.
Whether or not it is advantageous to pay off the mortgage is dependent on an individual factors.

In our case we opted to pay off the mortgage, all but a tiny amount just to keep the Schuldbrief alive to facilitate the sale of the house someday.

Our rationale was that living in Steuerparadis (Ausser)Schwyz and carrying the albatross that is the blue passport around our necks there is no real benefit to reducing Swiss taxes. What we save here we just have to pay there - and at the moment I'd rather pay more to Helvetia than Uncle Sam.

We also have limited investment opportunities in Switzerland (that albatross again) so the opportunity cost of using that money to pay off the mortgage rather than invest is not really an issue.

---

One thing every homeowner who carries a large mortgage should look into, though, is 'Tragbarkeit' once you retire. Is your pension enough to still allow that mortgage in the eyes of the bank?

I've heard stories of people who have been asked to make additional payments to bring Tragbarkeit in line with their reduced pension income, but I also know plenty of people whose mortgage carries on as per usual, despite a much reduced income in retirement. There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus as to how this is handled across the board, at least based on anecdotes. But financing in retirement is something to keep an eye on, if only to know where you would stand in a worse case scenario.
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  #26  
Old 10.01.2017, 12:54
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

In addition to deducting mortgage interest from your income, the value of your assets is reduced by the amount of the mortgage.

Tom
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Old 10.01.2017, 13:21
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

Thanks to you all for valuable input. Let me answer some questions that appeared.

She is a real person and not myself . I just know her situation and I, being myself, started wondering and calculating what would be the best option if I was in her place.

When I meant that she can save 40'000 annually, I meant the total, current+potential savings. I hope you will agree, that the savings potential is big. First, if you rent a flat worth 1'000'000, with a rate of 3% you will pay 30'000 annually. With a mortgage of 1% you just pay 10'000, which as I understand you can deduct from your income (another few thousand of tax benefit). Plus, if you plan to pay off the mortgage eventually, you can start making contributions to 3a pillar (another tax benefit).

I know that eventually it would be necessary to meet with a professional. I just wanted to get some general knowledge and opinions before I suggest them this. Then, is it smart to just talk to a bank employee? They just want to sell you the mortgage. Is there a way to find a trusted professional who is obliged to give you proofessional financial advice with your best interest in mind?

Thank you for pointing out all the risks involved. The thing is, currently she is paying a big rent and her parents have the money sitting at the bank. Sure, it's a safe setup, but a lot of lost potential savings, in my opinion. The flat they are willing to pay for would be on the outskirts Winterthur or similar, with a very long travel time to Zurich. The friend will not go for it.

From what I've grasped, it would be best if the parents were co-owners of the flat and if they had some spare savings in case of emergency.

Now how does it work with paying with pillar 2 or 3a for the flat? In order to keep the tax benefit, do you need to be "angemeldet" in there for the rest of your life? I am asking, because one scenario I would consider for her, is to work hard, pay off the mortgage in 15-20 years and then rent out the flat while living in a cheaper country on an early retirement.

Regarding the question: "why pay off?" I am assuming a scenario where there would be no cheap mortgage loan in 15 years. Of course, if you can still get one for 1% then sure, extend it. But I know that a responsible person should save a lot. Then if the money is just on the savings account, I believe it is worse off that being invested in a flat. And I don't see her or her parents investing in stocks or bonds.

Last edited by Meadow; 10.01.2017 at 14:10.
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  #28  
Old 10.01.2017, 13:35
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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In addition to deducting mortgage interest from your income, the value of your assets is reduced by the amount of the mortgage.
Mortgage has no effect on your taxable wealth. If you pay it out, it's just a zero sum redistribution of your existing wealth. Buying the house will reduce your wealth however, as it's taxable value is usually quite a bit lower (often by 30%) than what you paid for it.

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Our rationale was that living in Steuerparadis (Ausser)Schwyz and carrying the albatross that is the blue passport around our necks there is no real benefit to reducing Swiss taxes. What we save here we just have to pay there - and at the moment I'd rather pay more to Helvetia than Uncle Sam.
Tax advantage of the mortgage is not that big - just your marginal swiss income tax rate. Ignoring it, the current mortgage interest are still highly attractive. You get money at 0.7% and can reinvest say at 5-10% in US stock market.

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We also have limited investment opportunities in Switzerland (that albatross again)
There's no need to stay invested in Switzerland at all with the money you get from the mortgage, as long as you can take the currency risk.

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One thing every homeowner who carries a large mortgage should look into, though, is 'Tragbarkeit' once you retire. Is your pension enough to still allow that mortgage in the eyes of the bank?

I've heard stories of people who have been asked to make additional payments to bring Tragbarkeit in line with their reduced pension income, but I also know plenty of people whose mortgage carries on as per usual, despite a much reduced income in retirement.
Tragbarkeit will come into question only at the point when they have to renew the mortgage. The bank will simply not grant it then without additional amortization to compensate for lost income.

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When I meant that she can save 40'000 annually, I meant the total, current+potential savings. I hope you will agree, that the savings potential is big. First, if you rent a flat worth 1'000'000, with a rate of 3% you will pay 30'000 annually. With a mortgage of 1% you just pay 10'000, which as I understand you can deduct from your income (another few thousand of tax benefit). Plus, if you plan to pay off the mortgage eventually, you can start making contributions to 3a pillar (another tax benefit).
Mortgage is not the only house ownership costs. There's Nebenkosten, heating, maintenance/depreciation and taxes, and they're all rather significant compared to today's sub 1% mortgages. Landlord's profit margin is more like just 20-30% of net rent, the rest goes to cover the above costs. So to have 40k annual savings, you must be currently renting at 40000/12/0.30 = 10k per month or so, as a very rough guess.
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Old 10.01.2017, 13:56
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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Now how does it work with paying with pillar 2 or 3a for the flat? In order to keep the tax benefit, do you need to be "angemeldet" in there for the rest of your life?
Yes, you need to live in the flat after buying to use them. But not for the rest of your life. For pillar 3a, you just need to live at a single point of time. After the bank pays out, there are no strings attached to that money. Pillar 2 is more difficult: it will be written into the land registry books that the money came from pillar 2. If you sell or move out, you're obliged to repay the money back to the pension fund (from sale proceeds if you sell), or work out a deal to carry the funds over to your newly purchased house.

If you leave Switzerland, pension fund's money is supposed to be (almost) fully paid out to you, so I guess you wouldn't have to worry about repaying them and can have the remark removed from the land registry, but ask them in advance how this works before taking the money to be sure.

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Regarding the question: why pay off?
If you cannot or don't want (due to risks) to reinvest the money at a better rate that what you pay for the mortgage.
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  #30  
Old 10.01.2017, 14:09
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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Mortgage is not the only house ownership costs. There's Nebenkosten, heating, maintenance/depreciation and taxes, and they're all rather significant compared to today's sub 1% mortgages. Landlord's profit margin is more like just 20-30% of net rent, the rest goes to cover the above costs. So to have 40k annual savings, you must be currently renting at 40000/12/0.30 = 10k per month or so, as a very rough guess.
Once more, the 40'000 is the total that she could be saving on her current salary.

Of course, there are nebenkosten, but you pay them if you rent as well. If you rent a flat worth 1'000'000 and pay monthly 2500 Kaltmiete + 500 Nebenkosten, that's annually 30'000 (3%) + 6000 (0.6%).

Whereas with mortgage, you pay 10'000 interest (1%). Nebenkosten may be a bit higher than with rent, so let's put them at 10'000. Eigenmietwert at 30'000 minus maintenance and interest is 10'000 more taxable income. At 30% marginal rate that raises taxes by 3'000. Then you put 6'700 on 3a pillar which saves you 2'000. Total cost 21'000.

36'000 rent vs 21'000 own. Am I missing something?
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:11
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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36'000 rent vs 21'000 own. Am I missing something?
36k - 21k = 15k savings, not 40k.
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:16
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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36k - 21k = 15k savings, not 40k.
But if she is able to save 25k now, than she can save a total of 40k then.

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 10.01.2017 at 14:50.
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:19
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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But if she is able to save 25k now, than she can save a total of 40k than.
I think it's non mother tong English, is where the confusion has come from.
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:20
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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Once more, the 40'000 is the total that she could be saving on her current salary.

Of course, there are nebenkosten, but you pay them if you rent as well. If you rent a flat worth 1'000'000 and pay monthly 2500 Kaltmiete + 500 Nebenkosten, that's annually 30'000 (3%) + 6000 (0.6%).

Whereas with mortgage, you pay 10'000 interest (1%). Nebenkosten may be a bit higher than with rent, so let's put them at 10'000. Eigenmietwert at 30'000 minus maintenance and interest is 10'000 more taxable income. At 30% marginal rate that raises taxes by 3'000. Then you put 6'700 on 3a pillar which saves you 2'000. Total cost 21'000.

36'000 rent vs 21'000 own. Am I missing something?
If it's an apartment (as opposed to a free standing building) you will also need to pay money into the communitary fund. This covers thngs like electricity and maintenance for the communal areas, rainy day fund for a new roof etc etc. If the building has things like an elevator this will also have maintenance and electricity costs that you need to contribute to even if you don't use them.
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:24
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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36k - 21k = 15k savings, not 40k.
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But if she is able to save 25k now, than she can save a total of 40k than.
Yes. That's what I mean . The 40'000 I mentioned to assure that she should be able to pay off the mortgage on her own in 15-20 years.

By the way. If she would own a flat with her parents, but only live there herself, who of them would need to put the Eigenmietwert in their tax declaration? Would it be split?
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:27
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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If it's an apartment (as opposed to a free standing building) you will also need to pay money into the communitary fund. This covers thngs like electricity and maintenance for the communal areas, rainy day fund for a new roof etc etc. If the building has things like an elevator this will also have maintenance and electricity costs that you need to contribute to even if you don't use them.
But this kind of cost naturally has to be in there with regular Nebenkosten when you rent? I can't imagine a renting company would not count that and not put this cost on the tenants. So if I say 6'000 Nebenkosten vs 10'000 maintenance, then it should already cover it.
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:47
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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By the way. If she would own a flat with her parents, but only live there herself, who of them would need to put the Eigenmietwert in their tax declaration? Would it be split?
Someone would have to pay it, that's for sure. Both cases are possible I think. If parents have a lower income, I guess it's slightly more advantageous if it would be split. Just make up a formal rent contract: daughter pays X% of Eigenmietwert to them to use their X% of the property. If such payments would also actually happen, I doubt the tax office would say anything against it. The parents can return the payments back every now and then tax free in form of gifts, naturally.
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:54
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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But this kind of cost naturally has to be in there with regular Nebenkosten when you rent? I can't imagine a renting company would not count that and not put this cost on the tenants. So if I say 6'000 Nebenkosten vs 10'000 maintenance, then it should already cover it.
If you are comparing like with like, I agree.

But often when people move from tenancy to ownership they are moving from an old building with minimalist amenities to a modern one with the latest and greatest of everything and this is going to cost more in Nebenkosten.

In the bigger picture it may not be much but you need to keep your eyes open.
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:54
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

*****************************************
**** BEST PIECE OF ADVICE ****
*****************************************

Do not buy any property where the average historical
interest rate used for calculating affordability is
significantly higher than the current rental yield!
(yes 1-2% higher is significant!)

******************************************
******************************************


Regarding valuation, a simple calculation is that of a perpetual note.

House Value = Net Annual Rent / Average Rental Yield

Example:

Net Annual Rent = $10'000.-
Average Rental Yield = 3.5%
Value = 10'000 / 0.035 = $286k

Rental Yield is positively correlated with Interest Rates (Interest Rates up => Yields up), so assuming a spread of 2% of yields over Interest Rates (risk free rate), then if interest rates were to go up to the historical average of 5% then it's safe to assume that yields would go up to the region of 7%.

Now let's do the calculation based on 7% yields:

Value = 10k/0.07 = 143k

Change in % = 143 / 286 = 0.035/0.07 = 50%, yep you guessed it! That's a drop of 50%!!!

So buying a property is not about a secure roof over your head at all, it's a bet on rental yields staying low while interest rates rise! In other words it's bonkers!

That is all!
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Old 10.01.2017, 14:55
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Re: Mortgage tips and risks

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If parents have a lower income, I guess it's slightly more advantageous if it would be split. Just make up a formal rent contract: daughter pays X% of Eigenmietwert to them to use their X% of the property. If such payments would also actually happen, I doubt the tax office would say anything against it. The parents can return the payments back every now and then tax free in form of gifts, naturally.
But then the X% would be treated and taxed as normal rent/income on the parents side which may not be favorable.
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