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  #21  
Old 27.08.2017, 02:51
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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....I want to be a good citizen, walk with my head held high in the streets, be happy to pay taxes and involve into the political side of the country. Mind my own business and be true to my nature. ....

Can i do this?
If single and frugal - and in possession of 1 Million - yes.
For maybe 25 years.
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Old 27.08.2017, 02:54
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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I never meant to live there with only 1 million, the time i used this number was to report what other people were saying about the requiremenets of the fiscal deal. The number on the table is almost 3 times much.
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If single and frugal - and in possession of 1 3 Million - yes.
For maybe 25 years.
You've got it made.
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Old 27.08.2017, 02:57
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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I never meant to live there with only 1 million, the time i used this number was to report what other people were saying about the requiremenets of the fiscal deal. The number on the table is almost 3 times much.
Ok, with 3M it's probably survivable, although even then personally I'd rather live a much more comfortable life off of it in a cheaper country

So, get a job, get a permit, settle in, get yourself fired, and you're all set. Enjoy your low taxes: ~ 5K per year in Wollerau assuming 2% dividend yield on those 3M and no capital gains taxes (which depend on just how active you are at managing your wealth)
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Old 27.08.2017, 02:59
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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If single and frugal - and in possession of 1 Million - yes.
For maybe 25 years.
I don't understand the 25 Yeats thing, if you take out of the equation extremely big financial crysis if you livello fine for the first 25 Years, you can keep going for other 25
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Old 27.08.2017, 03:15
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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I don't understand the 25 Yeats thing, if you take out of the equation extremely big financial crysis if you livello fine for the first 25 Years, you can keep going for other 25
I'm presuming that inflation would cancel out interest income. So you 'consume' your capital for 25 years till its gone. Pessimistic, but safe.
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Old 27.08.2017, 03:30
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Ok, with 3M it's probably survivable, although even then personally I'd rather live a much more comfortable life off of it in a cheaper country

So, get a job, get a permit, settle in, get yourself fired, and you're all set. Enjoy your low taxes: ~ 5K per year in Wollerau assuming 2% dividend yield on those 3M and no capital gains taxes (which depend on just how active you are at managing your wealth)
I'll be sure to avoid any capital gain (i don't want to be a full time trader) but i think that 2% on 3M is a bit low, you can get those by keeping the money to get dusty on your bank account. I'm looking forward a net 3,5% on around 2.850.000 CHF (i have another 120k € that i would love to keep as liquid as possible for any big emergency, let's take them out of the equation). That should give me 100.00 CHF a year.
Living in Lausanne should take me away 25.000 of combinated income taxes, leaving me with 75.000. Other 25.000 a year for rent (looking into fresh 70-80 sqm 1 beedrom apartment) altough i would rather take a morgage or some sort of rent to buy option. 50k CHF are not enough for a single person?
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Old 27.08.2017, 03:52
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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I'll be sure to avoid any capital gain (i don't want to be a full time trader) but i think that 2% on 3M is a bit low, you can get those by keeping the money to get dusty on your bank account
Not in Switzerland, best you can hope for is about 0% and be thankful they don't pass SNB's -0.7% onto you, although some banks do. Even in Europe it's extreme, you must agree to lock away the money at a bank for 5-10 years to achieve anything near 2%, big risk if inflation rises. And finding enough banks to spread the money over for full coverage by deposit protection schemes will also be a problem at 3M

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I'm looking forward a net 3,5% on around 2.850.000 CHF
Stocks and real estate can give you such yields, not risk free of course. For stocks, 3.5% dividend is a bit too much to hope for, but if you're willing to sell sometimes and take it as total return it's ok

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Living in Lausanne
The french parts all have crazy high taxes. If you're concerned with taxation, you should be really looking at ZG or SZ, or at least ZH. Also italian parts aren't so bad - https://blog.tagesanzeiger.ch/datenb...steuerparadies

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Other 25.000 a year for rent (looking into fresh 70-80 sqm 1 beedrom apartment)
So 2k/month, it's possible for such an apartment practically anywhere in Switzerland except city centers. In the middle of nowhere, like GL, you can rent even a whole house for that money, maybe even with a small farm if you're lucky

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50k CHF are not enough for a single person?
Should be enough to survive, the official existence minimum in Zürich is 1100 Fr/month + room (maybe 500-600) = 20k.

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Old 27.08.2017, 05:22
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

Thank you again for taking time to answer me back!

I find hard to see she situation with your point of view. I'm not that into finance (always opted for different kind of investment) but i've been following and posting in a big finance forum here in Italy and, unless they're all a bunch of liars that enjoy saying a bunch of bulls**t (there are probably few of them) they manage to get those kind of numbers with a low-moderate amount of risk. They have a very diversified wallet ranging between a lot of different financial products, including stocks. But they still manage to do it.

I know that inflation is enemy number 1 of rentiers, but it's not something that can is meant to keep going all the way up forever. I want to move to switzerland cause your bank are strong, your country is wealthy and therefor i expect it to be the last place where a financial catastrophe could happen.

Since you're mostly renowned for your banking system i find hard to believe that i am going to have a bad time making a living out of financial products.
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  #29  
Old 27.08.2017, 07:19
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

There's no need to move to Switzerland for any of that. With the advent of internet and ebanking you too can get ripped off by swiss banks all in the comfort of your own home in Italy these days. With a few millions to deposit, they'll take you whether you're resident or not, it's really not a problem. Banks aren't your friends, they don't deserve the praise you give them. Read some book on investing before you buy wrong financial products. If you want it done right, you have to learn to do yourself.
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Old 27.08.2017, 08:01
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

If the aim is to live here, then why aren't you already here?
If you are an EU/EFTA citizen, the permit is a formality. You should move here and apply for one.
It would be a job-seekers permit for 3 months, it can be extended to 6 months if no job is found and exceptionally for a further 3 months if there are good prospects of finding a job. So this solution can give you your first 9 months here potentially.

Or you could apply for a self-employed person's permit for 1 year, which would give you more time to settle here. It would mean you can't work for someone else, but that's alright as you have said you don't want to work at all.
You would have to figure out what to do before the 1-year permit expires of course. You would also be taxed on any income and wealth you declare.
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  #31  
Old 27.08.2017, 08:17
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There's no need to move to Switzerland for any of that. With the advent of internet and ebanking you too can get ripped off by swiss banks all in the comfort of your own home in Italy these days. With a few millions to deposit, they'll take you whether you're resident or not, it's really not a problem. Banks aren't your friends, they don't deserve the praise you give them. Read some book on investing before you buy wrong financial products. If you want it done right, you have to learn to do yourself.
Banks are not your friend (neither you boss or anyone else when money is involved) and i'm aware of that (that's why i haven't dig into finance in my life).
Still, if there are people who make profits out of long-term investments (that you need to study deeply, that's for sure and i've been studying for the past 3 months) i don't see why doing that in Switzerland would be impossible.

Housing & Consuming prices are higher, but income taxes are way lower in any given canton compared to Italy, less than half at worst. Plus i wouldn't feel safe to be tied to a country whose culture i love and i'm proud to be part of, but it's not the primary example of a strong economy.
That i could technically live a more "comfortable" life here in Italy is something i know, but i'm happy to trade that off and live a simpler life for a dozen different reasons.
By what i grasped on the web (and a small chat with a professionist) i don't see why financial income in Switzerland should be harder to obtain than in Italy.

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If the aim is to live here, then why aren't you already here?
If you are an EU/EFTA citizen, the permit is a formality. You should move here and apply for one.
It would be a job-seekers permit for 3 months, it can be extended to 6 months if no job is found and exceptionally for a further 3 months if there are good prospects of finding a job. So this solution can give you your first 9 months here potentially.

Or you could apply for a self-employed person's permit for 1 year, which would give you more time to settle here. It would mean you can't work for someone else, but that's alright as you have said you don't want to work at all.
You would have to figure out what to do before the 1-year permit expires of course. You would also be taxed on any income and wealth you declare.
Because i have other hobbies than trying to live in a different country just for fun, sir. The amount of time, energy and money this thing requires is no small deal, so i'd rather do a preliminary conversation and information gathering (as i'm doing right now), speak with some expert and counselor in a second moment and then, if i see this is feasible, move there as soon as possible.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.08.2017 at 12:55. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #32  
Old 27.08.2017, 08:25
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

But you want to live here and have enough money to live here already. It would not be for fun, it would be apparently following your dream.
If I was in Milan, I would be in Switzerland as often as possible sorting out my future. You don't work in Italy I assume, so you have the time on your hands as well.
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  #33  
Old 27.08.2017, 09:03
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Still, if there are people who make profits out of long-term investments (that you need to study deeply, that's for sure and i've been studying for the past 3 months) i don't see why doing that in Switzerland would be impossible.
I don't see why it's impossible anywhere out of Switzerland either. Financial markets are global, and best and cheapest brokers are definitely and by far *NOT* swiss.

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Housing & Consuming prices are higher, but income taxes are way lower in any given canton compared to Italy, less than half at worst.
There are cheaper countries with even lower taxes out there
http://www.bradleyhackford.com/en/ex...ountries-2016/

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Plus i wouldn't feel safe to be tied to a country whose culture i love and i'm proud to be part of, but it's not the primary example of a strong economy.
Who's tieing you? Milan to Ticino is like, a 30-40 min drive? You can commute every day if you want. Nothing's really preventing you from keeping cash at 0% interest in swiss banks, if you don't trust italian banks. Waive 3 millions in front of them and they'll sign you up for private banking with a personal salesman for you right away.

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By what i grasped on the web (and a small chat with a professionist) i don't see why financial income in Switzerland should be harder to obtain than in Italy.
Nor in pretty much in any other developed country these days. So why choose the one with one of the highest living costs in the world? It's just dumb.
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  #34  
Old 27.08.2017, 09:39
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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But you want to live here and have enough money to live here already. It would not be for fun, it would be apparently following your dream.
If I was in Milan, I would be in Switzerland as often as possible sorting out my future. You don't work in Italy I assume, so you have the time on your hands as well.
I officially stopped to work on last May, when i couldn't keep up th erithm any longer, and i recieved the kind of money i'm planning on live the last part of my life. I've been thinking about staying here in Italy or moving to either Spain (Costa del Sol), France (Provence) or Switzerland. The last is the one i would like to pursuit. I have time to dig into the subject and i will do with every means at my disposal. Including talking with you kind fellows and lurking the internet right now, cause it's Sunday.
You're saying i already have the kind of money i need to live in Switzerland, but other members of the forum questioned that, so i'm still trying to figure it out (preliminary)

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I don't see why it's impossible anywhere out of Switzerland either. Financial markets are global, and best and cheapest brokers are definitely and by far *NOT* swiss.


There are cheaper countries with even lower taxes out there
http://www.bradleyhackford.com/en/ex...ountries-2016/


Who's tieing you? Milan to Ticino is like, a 30-40 min drive? You can commute every day if you want. Nothing's really preventing you from keeping cash at 0% interest in swiss banks, if you don't trust italian banks. Waive 3 millions in front of them and they'll sign you up for a private banking with a personal salesmen for you right away.


Nor in pretty much any other developed country these days. So why choose the one with one of the highest living costs in the world? It's just dumb.
I think you are not understanding me sir, it's probably my fault so i'll try to be more clar.
I want to live in Switzerland. I know i could live in Angola or Sri Lanka, but i don't want to live there. I want to live in Switzerland.

Why?

-Cold weather > Hot weather. Hot and humid weather brings insects and you can't go around town naked. Cold weather prevents mosquitoes and things like that and you can cover yourself up as muc as you like. Many people see "going around with shorts and t shirts all year round" as a plus, i don't. I like shirts, and sweaters, and coats. There's a time and place for t shirts too.

-Mountain > Sea. Cause unless you live in the tropics (with all sort of other problems) Sea in winter sucks. Mountain in winter is good cause you can Ski and do a lot of sports, and in summer or spring you can hike, downhill and a ton of fun stuffs.

-Switzerland is cleaner and safer

-I like more the attitude of Swiss people (not much the ones in Ticino who are basically just smarter Italians)

-I'm still in a good position to travel to Europe

-Less corruption (you are now going to say the politicians are bad and there's corruption, i would invite you to come to italy)

-Direct democracy and federalism.

-I can wake up every morning knowing that the taxes i paid are not used for: Contributing to UE funds that are used to help Poland (who is eager to take money, but not refugees), contributing to Erasmus project so i can send abroad a bunch of spoiled millenials (whose family definitely have the kind of money to fully cover the expenses) so they can party all the time and then share quotes about "exploring the world and meeting other cultures".
I can wake up knowing i'm not paying thousand of leeches from the southern region (there's a proportion study about the ratio between sqm of forests and forest guard per region: the south has swarms of them, despite having a lot less trees compared to the northern region who are greener. those are all leeches. and this is just the tip of the ice)

Then i guess that, if a public worker in Switzerland is caught cheating the state (by not showing at work, or showing in underwear, clocking and then going back home to keep sleeping. and this has happened) you punish him as hard as possible.
And i also guess that your goverment don't use public funds to give fresh 18 years old guys a 500€ "cultural bonus", which is so flawed you can spend on Techno festivals. Or is used by young people to buy books, sell them istantly and then use the money for cocaine and prostitues (i'm not joking at all).

And i could go on ranting about the situation, but it's probably better if i restrain myself cause this is not "complain about your country.ch".

These are the reasons i would like to live in Switzerland. And no, a bigger house or a better car don't compensate that!
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  #35  
Old 27.08.2017, 10:08
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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I officially stopped to work on last May, when i couldn't keep up th erithm any longer, and i recieved the kind of money i'm planning on live the last part of my life. I've been thinking about staying here in Italy or moving to either Spain (Costa del Sol), France (Provence) or Switzerland. The last is the one i would like to pursuit. I have time to dig into the subject and i will do with every means at my disposal. Including talking with you kind fellows and lurking the internet right now, cause it's Sunday.
You're saying i already have the kind of money i need to live in Switzerland, but other members of the forum questioned that, so i'm still trying to figure it out (preliminary)
If you have 3 million francs to live off, even with no income at all from any source, you can live in Switzerland and get by for a very long time.
Let's say you need 3'000 francs to live off per month.
That's 36'000 francs per annum. 3 million francs divided by 36'000 francs gives 83 years. More than sufficient.
As mentioned, the permit is a mere formality.
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Old 27.08.2017, 10:26
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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If you have 3 million francs to live off, even with no income at all from any source, you can live in Switzerland and get by for a very long time.
Let's say you need 3'000 francs to live off per month.
That's 36'000 francs per annum. 3 million francs divided by 36'000 francs gives 83 years. More than sufficient.
As mentioned, the permit is a mere formality.
That would not ne a smart move sir, consuming capital aggressively is highly discouraged in any sorge that talks about becomimg a rentier. Altough the idea of leaving this world with almost 3 millions CHF on my bank account for the to tale does noto appeal much to me. There are formulas for a combined income, bit right know i'm thinking mainly about protecting the capital.
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Old 27.08.2017, 10:28
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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That would not ne a smart move sir, consuming capital aggressively is highly discouraged in any sorge that talks about becomimg a rentier. Altough the idea of leaving this world with almost 3 millions CHF on my bank account for the to tale does noto appeal much to me. There are formulas for a combined income, bit right know i'm thinking mainly about protecting the capital.
I don't think the consumption is aggressive. How old are you? Are you single?
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Old 27.08.2017, 10:35
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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I don't think the consumption is aggressive. How old are you? Are you single?
I'm 30 Years old and single (noto planning on marrying and having kids, and if i change my mind then i'll find a job). Consuming capital exposes you eventi further to tour number one enemy, inflation.

Tour 36k a year seems a bit low on me tbh.
You don't have any tax cause you don't have any in come probably, bit you still have to throw in 25k a year for housing, plus medical insurance + taxes and insurance on the far + a ton of differenti things. 36k is very low.
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Old 27.08.2017, 10:38
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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If you have 3 million francs to live off, even with no income at all from any source, you can live in Switzerland and get by for a very long time.
Let's say you need 3'000 francs to live off per month.
That's 36'000 francs per annum. 3 million francs divided by 36'000 francs gives 83 years. More than sufficient.
As mentioned, the permit is a mere formality.
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That would not ne a smart move sir, consuming capital aggressively is highly discouraged in any sorge that talks about becomimg a rentier. Altough the idea of leaving this world with almost 3 millions CHF on my bank account for the to tale does noto appeal much to me. There are formulas for a combined income, bit right know i'm thinking mainly about protecting the capital.
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Consuming capital exposes you eventi further to tour number one enemy, inflation.

Tour 36k a year seems a bit low on me tbh.
You don't have any tax cause you don't have any in come probably, bit you still have to throw in 25k a year for housing, plus medical insurance + taxes and insurance on the far + a ton of differenti things. 36k is very low.
You seem to know it all better than the perfectly sensible answers already given.
If you do not trust any of the answers here, get a tax lawyer and pay for advice?
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Old 27.08.2017, 10:39
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Tour 36k a year seems a bit low on me tbh.
Entirely dependent upon lifestyle. It's more than doable. I could easily get by on a lot less if I were alone.
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