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  #41  
Old 27.08.2017, 10:48
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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I officially stopped to work on last May, when i couldn't keep up th erithm any longer, and i recieved the kind of money i'm planning on live the last part of my life. I've been thinking about staying here in Italy or moving to either Spain (Costa del Sol), France (Provence) or Switzerland. The last is the one i would like to pursuit. I have time to dig into the subject and i will do with every means at my disposal. Including talking with you kind fellows and lurking the internet right now, cause it's Sunday.
You're saying i already have the kind of money i need to live in Switzerland, but other members of the forum questioned that, so i'm still trying to figure it out (preliminary)



I think you are not understanding me sir, it's probably my fault so i'll try to be more clar.
I want to live in Switzerland. I know i could live in Angola or Sri Lanka, but i don't want to live there. I want to live in Switzerland.

Why?

-Cold weather > Hot weather. Hot and humid weather brings insects and you can't go around town naked. Cold weather prevents mosquitoes and things like that and you can cover yourself up as muc as you like. Many people see "going around with shorts and t shirts all year round" as a plus, i don't. I like shirts, and sweaters, and coats. There's a time and place for t shirts too.

-Mountain > Sea. Cause unless you live in the tropics (with all sort of other problems) Sea in winter sucks. Mountain in winter is good cause you can Ski and do a lot of sports, and in summer or spring you can hike, downhill and a ton of fun stuffs.

-Switzerland is cleaner and safer

-I like more the attitude of Swiss people (not much the ones in Ticino who are basically just smarter Italians)

-I'm still in a good position to travel to Europe

-Less corruption (you are now going to say the politicians are bad and there's corruption, i would invite you to come to italy)

-Direct democracy and federalism.

-I can wake up every morning knowing that the taxes i paid are not used for: Contributing to UE funds that are used to help Poland (who is eager to take money, but not refugees), contributing to Erasmus project so i can send abroad a bunch of spoiled millenials (whose family definitely have the kind of money to fully cover the expenses) so they can party all the time and then share quotes about "exploring the world and meeting other cultures".
I can wake up knowing i'm not paying thousand of leeches from the southern region (there's a proportion study about the ratio between sqm of forests and forest guard per region: the south has swarms of them, despite having a lot less trees compared to the northern region who are greener. those are all leeches. and this is just the tip of the ice)

Then i guess that, if a public worker in Switzerland is caught cheating the state (by not showing at work, or showing in underwear, clocking and then going back home to keep sleeping. and this has happened) you punish him as hard as possible.
And i also guess that your goverment don't use public funds to give fresh 18 years old guys a 500€ "cultural bonus", which is so flawed you can spend on Techno festivals. Or is used by young people to buy books, sell them istantly and then use the money for cocaine and prostitues (i'm not joking at all).

And i could go on ranting about the situation, but it's probably better if i restrain myself cause this is not "complain about your country.ch".

These are the reasons i would like to live in Switzerland. And no, a bigger house or a better car don't compensate that!
Oh dear, you really don't know much about some of this do you.

Switzerland does contribute to the EU and to Erasmus. When the Swiss voted to curb immigration from the EU back in 2014 (yeah, they don't really want you here you know) the EU retaliated by cutting Switzerland out of Erasmus. Now the Swiss have backed down and not introduced quota limits on EU permits they've been allowed back into Erasmus.

Direct democracy is fine, but you won't be participating in it. Only Swiss nationals can vote. A few cantons allow foreigners to vote in local commune/gemeinde (town/city/villages) council elections if they've been resident there for a minimum number of years, but that's it. A few others may allow them to vote in local referendums. The rest allow neither, voting is restricted to Swiss nationals only. All major decisions (such as the vote to curb EU immigration) are taken by the Swiss and Swiss only, even though such decisions will affect non-Swiss nationals living here. If you decide to become a Swiss citizen you'll lose your tax status and be taxed as normal.

http://www.swisstaxnetwork.ch/gesetz...orfeit-fiscale

Also note that such flat tax deals are coming under increasing pressure to be abolished.

https://translate.googleusercontent....AoR3E50HVxmWng

So what may be possible now, might not be in the future. And yes, things are already changing and will be applied to people who already have such deals from 2020.

You like officiousness and nosy neighbours do you? Well, this will be the place for you then. Plenty of rules and regulations to keep you happy.

This has a little more info on what's required if you don't want to work here, but it's still vague as to how much they consider is sufficient.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/content/dam...staetige-e.pdf

There's also this recent thread on the subject:

https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...mployment.html
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  #42  
Old 27.08.2017, 10:52
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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You seem to know it all better than the perfectly sensible answers already given.
If you do not trust any of the answers here, get a tax lawyer and pay for advice?
I do trust your opinion, sir. But I don't know you personally, so if a member say "yes you can" and the other "no you can't" then wanting to understand both positions is wise.
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  #43  
Old 27.08.2017, 11:17
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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You like officiousness and nosy neighbours do you? Well, this will be the place for you then.
Although to be fair this will depend entirely upon where you live.
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This has a little more info on what's required if you don't want to work here, but it's still vague as to how much they consider is sufficient.
https://www.sem.admin.ch/content/dam...staetige-e.pdf[/url]
Again this will depend on circumstances and location, so probably best to speak to local authorities.
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  #44  
Old 27.08.2017, 11:28
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Oh dear, you really don't know much about some of this do you.
About contributing to EU, I knew you did to a certain degree (otherwise you wouldn't be allowed in Schengen, just guessing). But I bet it is relatively lower, and you do not get migrants too. I'm pissed off about the fact that I have to pay for other countries while having to deal with the immigration problem basically all by ourselves.

About Erasmus , I believed you were out of the programme. On the Erasmus site I didn't see you on the Non EU partner list. I would look into that. It is a secondary matter, I'll replace it with this :
Let's say you manage to build a house where you are not supposed to (by bribing someone) and damage the beautiful nature in the process (which should belong to everyone) for your own selfish sake. If your house gets destroyed by a natural disaster, does the Confederation pay you back with public money?

About taxes (that's the subject I'm more interested into) you are referring to some sort of flat tax. I was doing calculations on data I found on the internet, was around 25% in Lausanne (combined income taxes). Is that 25% I found a special deal for fresh B permit expat?

About direct democracy , i did't know about that, so thank you for letting me know. Still, I would rather not be able to vote in a less corrupted system where the people around me are constantly questioned than being able to vote in a corrupted system filled with flaws.
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  #45  
Old 27.08.2017, 11:32
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

You will not be able to vote at all until you are a Swiss citizen (with some very few local exceptions). There are migrants in Switzerland as well.

Do get the rosy tinted glasses off, inform yourself a bit more and get a tax advisor. If you really have so much money, youŽd be able to pay for good advice.

And maybe you mentioned that already, but are you a EU citizen? If not, the idea of getting a low paid job and then staying does not work if you are not EU
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  #46  
Old 27.08.2017, 11:38
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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About taxes (that's the subject I'm more interested into) you are referring to some sort of flat tax. I was doing calculations on data I found on the internet, was around 25% in Lausanne (combined income taxes).
I gave you already a link to pretty neat map with tax rates in whole country if you'd care to read the thread

Avoid French cantons like a plague if you care about money. SZ, ZG, maybe ZH is a much better choice tax wise

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Is that 25% I found a special deal for fresh B permit expat?
You're not going get any special treatment with only 3m - taxable income from that wealth is less than from a normal job, tax office will only laugh. So focus on regular taxes, they aren't so high in any case. Tax deals are for filthy rich as people already pointed you out.
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Old 27.08.2017, 11:44
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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The situation is way different from what i firstly grasped. The first result you get by searching this subject in my native language (Italian) is a guy in a forum (recent post, january 2016) who claims is enoug to have a deposit of 1 milion CHF and 150.000 chf of yearly income.

If indeed this was the case about 15-20% of Swiss people/residents would immediately qualify, probably more !
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Old 27.08.2017, 11:51
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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If you have 3 million francs to live off, even with no income at all from any source, you can live in Switzerland and get by for a very long time.
Let's say you need 3'000 francs to live off per month.
That's 36'000 francs per annum. 3 million francs divided by 36'000 francs gives 83 years. More than sufficient.
As mentioned, the permit is a mere formality.
Why would anybody who has Chf 3mio of disposable capital want to try and live of Chf 3k in Switzerland ?

You would get a 1 room apartment, shit healthcare, eat crap and do nothing and die a bitter person with a shed load of cash.

The last shirt has no pockets.....
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Old 27.08.2017, 11:54
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You will not be able to vote at all until you are a Swiss citizen (with some very few local exceptions). There are migrants in Switzerland as well.

Do get the rosy tinted glasses off, inform yourself a bit more and get a tax advisor. If you really have so much money, youŽd be able to pay for good advice.

And maybe you mentioned that already, but are you a EU citizen? If not, the idea of getting a low paid job and then staying does not work if you are not EU
I am an EU citizen, born in Italy.

I will of course ask for professional tax and financial advisory, as I already said. But the one thing I like about forums is that people are not involved directly with me. I don't buy even a pair of socks if I haven't done research on the subject. As I don't enjoy going into a shop and doing a leap of faith in the arms of the sales assistant, I don't want to visit an advisor totally unprepared. Cause I've been burnt in the past.

About democracy I repeat: sad, but it is ok. I can vote in my country and the system is ed up, i would pick a nation where I have no representation but things are better anyway.

About informing myself, is what I am trying to do here.

About migrants (we both know the kind of migrants I'm talking about) you don't have as much as us. I don't have data in my hand, but I would bet my right arm. Because of your location and because I'm pretty sure I wasn't dreaming your police forces blocking them at the border near Como, that actually happened. That means someone in the right spot of power is not happy to welcome them, and in the end it should be pretty effective

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I gave you already a link to pretty neat map with tax rates in whole country if you'd care to read the thread

Avoid French cantons like a plague if you care about money. SZ, ZG, maybe ZH is a much better choice tax wise


You're not going get any special treatment with only 3m - taxable income from that wealth is less than from a normal job, tax office will only laugh. So focus on regular taxes, they aren't so high in any case. Tax deals are for filthy rich as people already pointed you out.
There's still some misunderstanding between you and me.

In one of your previous posts you used as an argument "against" me moving to Switzerland the fact that there's pressure to remove this flat tax before 2020. But if I don't have a special tax permit and I will pay as a regular citizen, why should I be concerned about this flat tax? If I'm not a privileged man I'm on the same boat as you all, so I don't believe the fellow Swiss are going to push taxes high just to see me broke.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.08.2017 at 13:00. Reason: merging consecutive replies, try the multi-quote button, to the right of quote :)
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Old 27.08.2017, 12:05
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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In one of your previous posts you used as an argument "against" me moving to Switzerland the fact that there's pressure to remove this flat tax before 2020. But if I don't have a special tax permit and I will pay as a regular citizen, why should I be concerned about this flat tax? If I'm not a privileged man I'm on the same boat as you all, so I don't believe the fellow Swiss are going to push taxes high just to see me broke.
Because you are asking for a special deal?
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Old 27.08.2017, 12:26
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Because you are asking for a special deal?
I'm not asking for it, the "fiscal deal" was taken out of the equation in page 1.

Now the situation is this (I'll try to keep this simple)

I have roughly 2.850.000 that I want to fully invest. I've been studying a bit of finance in the past 3 months and confronted with several people. People based in Italy that can obtain an yearly net 3,6% (actually a bit more) with a well diversified, low to moderate risk and not very time consuming wallet. I just don't see why I shouldn't be able to achieve the same results (after more studying, ofc) in Switzerland. Cause if you say your banks "perform" poorly I wonder why you are still renowned as the best bankers in the world (and you don't have bank secret anymore).

If this thing gets cleared, I would find myself with 100k chf of yearly income. Minus 25k of income taxes. Regular taxpayers, no benefit, the number should be right for living in Lausanne or Montreux or Bern. And I know taxes are "crazy high", but let's pursue this scenario for now. Cause I know Zug has lower taxes, but I have a feeling it is not that appealing (instead of Lausanne or Montreux which I visited, or the idea of having Berner Oberland at my disposal).

So I would have 75k left, minus 25k for housing (checked the properties, seems ok to me). 50k left for living.
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Old 27.08.2017, 12:32
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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If this thing gets cleared, I would find myself with 100k chf of yearly income. Minus 25k of income taxes. Regular taxpayers, no benefit, the number should be right for living in Lausanne or Montreux or Bern. And I know taxes are "crazy high", but let's pursue this scenario for now. Cause I know Zug has lower taxes, but I have a feeling it is not that appealing (instead of Lausanne or Montreux which I visited, or the idea of having Berner Oberland at my disposal).

So I would have 75k left, minus 25k for housing (checked the properties, seems ok to me). 50k left for living.
Welcome to being poor then. You forgot about health insurance, other insurances, mobile phone, transport etc etc
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Old 27.08.2017, 12:48
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Welcome to being poor then. You forgot about health insurance, other insurances, mobile phone, transport etc etc
I didn't forget about those, I counted them into "living". Are you saying that is not enough?
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Old 27.08.2017, 12:52
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Why would anybody who has Chf 3mio of disposable capital want to try and live of Chf 3k in Switzerland ?
You would get a 1 room apartment, shit healthcare, eat crap and do nothing and die a bitter person with a shed load of cash.
I didn't say anybody wanted to. I was merely working out how long the money would last. Obviously if they live off 6'000 francs a month instead of 3'000 then the money is going to be used up in half the time, so not 83 years, but around 41 years. The current age is 30, so living off 6'000 francs a month is possible in this case. The money may run out by the time they are about 70.

We live off less than 3'000 francs a month and we don't have any of the conditions you described, on the contrary.

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I'm pretty sure I wasn't dreaming your police forces blocking them at the border near Como, that actually happened.
Some/most of those migrants want to get to Germany or the UK and are not interested in staying in Switzerland, they just use it as a transit country.

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I didn't forget about those, I counted them into "living". Are you saying that is not enough?
For one person it can be more than enough. We live off less and still put money aside every month.
It depends on lifestyle and choice. It will also depend much on location.
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Old 27.08.2017, 13:07
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

Thank you sir for your opinion.

A small detour about migrants although off topic: most of them doesn't want to stay here in Italy either! But guess what, they depart from African shores and they get rescued (cause the alternative is leaving them to die, and nobody wants to go down that path). Once they're rescued and here, other fellow Europeans either don't take their share, or take it very slowly. Meanwhile, the problem is still on us.

Lifestyle is very difficult to discuss, I believe that 36k a year is way to low. But I've been reading a couple of threads about people asking whether they could afford to live in Switzerland (on this forum). I remember a guy with wife + kid earning total of 120k, wanting to live in a house with a dog. And the answers were basically green light to them.
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Old 27.08.2017, 13:11
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Lifestyle is very difficult to discuss, I believe that 36k a year is way to low. .
Lifestyle, choices and location are all factors that this depends on. How much you live off is up to you broadly speaking. As mentioned we live off less than that. What is low for some is high for others.
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Old 27.08.2017, 13:15
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

If you want to come live in Switzerland with income from elsewhere and not work, a an EU citizen you can. Assuming you make enough money, 100k should be enough.

No need to get a job, quit a job, etc....

A 'tax deal' however as you read is a completely different animal which you don't seem to qualify for.

Also, you might be seeing 'lots of houses available' but don't be fooled in many places it is difficult to get a reasonably priced apartment.
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Old 27.08.2017, 13:16
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Lifestyle, choices and location are all factors that this depends on. How much you live off is up to you broadly speaking. As mentioned we live off less than that. What is low for some is high for others.
Yes, but you and roegner live in the same country. I find hard to believe you can be both "right". You say you can have a decent lifestyle with 36k, the other saying would be poor with 100k a year.

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If you want to come live in Switzerland with income from elsewhere and not work, a an EU citizen you can. Assuming you make enough money, 100k should be enough.

No need to get a job, quit a job, etc....

A 'tax deal' however as you read is a completely different animal which you don't seem to qualify for.

Also, you might be seeing 'lots of houses available' but don't be fooled in many places it is difficult to get a reasonably priced apartment.
The fiscal deal is out of the question, I wanted to open a new thread but in the end I kept posting in this one.

That's not entirely my fault, if you search the web for that subjects in my native languages, you see people talking about 150k minimum income + 1kk deposit, or 2kk deposit and variable income. In the end you showed me it is a very different situation.

I checked the places and found multiple "good options". I will need to figure out if maybe buying cash after few months is better than renting / getting a mortgage. But that's another subject

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.08.2017 at 14:35. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 27.08.2017, 13:39
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Yes, but you and roegner live in the same country. I find hard to believe you can be both "right". You say you can have a decent lifestyle with 36k, the other saying would be poor with 100k a year.
Someone working in a supermarket will earn roughly 48k a year, if that gives you an idea. 100k is above average but not a high salary,
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Old 27.08.2017, 13:52
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Re: Information on "fiscale deal"

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Someone working in a supermarket will earn roughly 48k a year, if that gives you an idea. 100k is above average but not a high salary,
I don't want to be a wealthy guy (otherwise I would've moved to Spain, or stayed in Italy where with 100k chf a year you're moderate wealthy). I want to be a Swiss regular guy with a ton of free time, without having to take very high risks (nothing would suck more than to be forced to work in 10 years because something went wrong). Only job I would consider is dog sitting
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