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-   -   Information on "fiscale deal" (https://www.englishforum.ch/finance-banking-taxation/273890-information-fiscale-deal.html)

Ozweego 26.08.2017 22:18

Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Hood evening everyone!
This is my first message on this forum, I'm writing this to gather more information about the "fiscale dea", hoping this is the correct name. I'm talking about the status you can obtain (and pay less taxes therefor) if you are a wealthy individual that want to nove to switzerland and live by managing tour own wealth (so no other job or economical activity).

I've found many different information on the internet and i would like to hear from someone who gas dealt with this matter previously

Thank you for tour time, regards

fatmanfilms 26.08.2017 22:26

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837439)
Hood evening everyone!
This is my first message on this forum, I'm writing this to gather more information about the "fiscale dea", hoping this is the correct name. I'm talking about the status you can obtain (and pay less taxes therefor) if you are a wealthy individual that want to nove to switzerland and live by managing tour own wealth (so no other job or economical activity).

I've found many different information on the internet and i would like to hear from someone who gas dealt with this matter previously

Thank you for tour time, regards

Not all cantons will do this, min tax payable is at least 120,000 CHF, probably more. You can't have worked in CH for 10 years prior. The days of 30K deals have long gone. The canton with about 25% of all deals is VS.

roegner 26.08.2017 22:26

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837439)
Hood evening everyone!
This is my first message on this forum, I'm writing this to gather more information about the "fiscale dea", hoping this is the correct name. I'm talking about the status you can obtain (and pay less taxes therefor) if you are a wealthy individual that want to nove to switzerland and live by managing tour own wealth (so no other job or economical activity).

I've found many different information on the internet and i would like to hear from someone who gas dealt with this matter previously

Thank you for tour time, regards

Simple, call the tax office and talk to them, repeat that with all the cities you might want to live in and take the one with the best offer.

Ozweego 26.08.2017 22:43

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 2837443)
Not all cantons will do this, min tax payable is at least 120,000 CHF, probably more. You can't have worked in CH for 10 years prior. The days of 30K deals have long gone. The canton with about 25% of all deals is VS.

Thank you for your answer, sir. I'm not sure i fully understood what you were trying to say: Are you saying that my yearly income should be at least 120.000 CHF or that wathever i do i'll have to pay at least 120.000 CHF in taxes? I think you eant the first but i wan't to be sure.
On top of that, i've read that you need to have a deposit in a swiss bank account (i've read 1 million CHF). Do i have to keep this deposid "liquid" (i mean not invested in any sort of financial product) or can i dispose of it freely?


Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 2837444)
Simple, call the tax office and talk to them, repeat that with all the cities you might want to live in and take the one with the best offer.

I will definitely speak to a professionist and call the different offices. I'm thinkin about either Vaud (Lausanne or Montreaux) or Bern (Bern itself or Thun), but this is for another topic.
My life philosophy (one of many) is "never enter a room or a conversation unprepared", this is why i like forums so much. I would like to gather some real life experience so i can be more prepared to speak with the required people

roegner 26.08.2017 22:53

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837450)
Thank you for your answer, sir. I'm not sure i fully understood what you were trying to say: Are you saying that my yearly income should be at least 120.000 CHF or that wathever i do i'll have to pay at least 120.000 CHF in taxes? I think you eant the first but i wan't to be sure.

Taxes to be paid, definitely not an income of 120k per year

fatmanfilms 26.08.2017 23:07

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837450)
Thank you for your answer, sir. I'm not sure i fully understood what you were trying to say: Are you saying that my yearly income should be at least 120.000 CHF or that wathever i do i'll have to pay at least 120.000 CHF in taxes? I think you eant the first but i wan't to be sure.
On top of that, i've read that you need to have a deposit in a swiss bank account (i've read 1 million CHF). Do i have to keep this deposid "liquid" (i mean not invested in any sort of financial product) or can i dispose of it freely?




I will definitely speak to a professionist and call the different offices. I'm thinkin about either Vaud (Lausanne or Montreaux) or Bern (Bern itself or Thun), but this is for another topic.
My life philosophy (one of many) is "never enter a room or a conversation unprepared", this is why i like forums so much. I would like to gather some real life experience so i can be more prepared to speak with the required people

Theoretical income needs to be about 450k, ideally more.
You don't need a deposit in a Swiss bank of 1 million, however you may need to show significant assets to prove your wealth, depositing several million in an investment account shows your serious. You will need to spend about 80k a year in rent, no 1k a month flat share :D

Ozweego 26.08.2017 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 2837452)
Taxes to be paid, definitely not an income of 120k per year

That's a very different situation from what i've read on some pages on the internet. This means the target of the fiscal deal is people who are in the UHNWI range.

Let's say 120.000 CHF of taxes is considered "low" by someone. Let's say it's just 10% of what he earns in a year, that would be 1.200.000 CHF of income.
By getting that kind of income with finantial products without being to much exposed or having to trade costantly, let's fix a net 5% of combined interests (4% is more realistic, but let's do 5% of easier math) we get a staggering 24.000.000 CHF.

Am i doing something wrong?

The situation is way different from what i firstly grasped. The first result you get by searching this subject in my native language (Italian) is a guy in a forum (recent post, january 2016) who claims is enoug to have a deposit of 1 milion CHF and 150.000 chf of yearly income.

roegner 26.08.2017 23:21

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837462)
That's a very different situation from what i've read on some pages on the internet. This means the target of the fiscal deal is people who are in the UHNWI range.

Let's say 120.000 CHF of taxes is considered "low" by someone. Let's say it's just 10% of what he earns in a year, that would be 1.200.000 CHF of income.
By getting that kind of income with finantial products without being to much exposed or having to trade costantly, let's fix a net 5% of combined interests (4% is more realistic, but let's do 5% of easier math) we get a staggering 24.000.000 CHF.

Am i doing something wrong?

Why do you think you would get a residency permit and a tax deal with what is considered to be a "regular" income (120k)? If you want to live here and have a special tax deal you need to have the income

fatmanfilms 26.08.2017 23:29

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837462)
That's a very different situation from what i've read on some pages on the internet. This means the target of the fiscal deal is people who are in the UHNWI range.

Let's say 120.000 CHF of taxes is considered "low" by someone. Let's say it's just 10% of what he earns in a year, that would be 1.200.000 CHF of income.
By getting that kind of income with finantial products without being to much exposed or having to trade costantly, let's fix a net 5% of combined interests (4% is more realistic, but let's do 5% of easier math) we get a staggering 24.000.000 CHF.

Am i doing something wrong?

The deal is for RICH people who don't want to be taxed on world wide income, where 1 million is peanuts. Tax & social costs will be at least 30% of theoretical income.
The people that this is aimed at probably have 24,000,000 net worth if not substantially more.

As I said in my first reply the days of 30k deals are long gone. It's clearly not for you.

Ozweego 26.08.2017 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 2837464)
Why do you think you would get a residency permit and a tax deal with what is considered to be a "regular" income (120k)? If you want to live here and have a special tax deal you need to have the income

I tought about the key of this deal was Switzerland getting benefits for me (pay a bit of taxes, giving money to te community since i live and buy in Switzerland, so help the economy grow a bit) without the immigration related problem of "stealing work away from Swiss people" (something very present in ticino toward people from Italy) since i'm not working but just living of the money i already have.
And i thought they just fixed a minimum verified income / deposit to make sure you are not going to obtain low taxes for years and then having to leech the wellfare cause you were too poor to sustain Swiss cost of living.

This is what i grasped, but that's not the case!

Sorry for the many spelling errors i made in the previous post, i don't have the ability to edit my old messages yet so i can't fix them!

roegner 26.08.2017 23:40

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837473)
I tought about the key of this deal was Switzerland getting benefits for me (pay a bit of taxes, giving money to te community since i live and buy in Switzerland, so help the economy grow a bit) without the immigration related problem of "stealing work away from Swiss people" (something very present in ticino toward people from Italy) since i'm not working but just living of the money i already have.
And i thought they just fixed a minimum verified income / deposit to make sure you are not going to obtain low taxes for years and then having to leech the wellfare cause you were too poor to sustain Swiss cost of living.

This is what i grasped, but that's not the case!

Why would they do that? "Giving a bit of taxes" is done by so many people. So either your work and live here and pay taxes or have a lot of money and arrange for a tax deal.

Ozweego 27.08.2017 00:00

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 2837476)
Why would they do that? "Giving a bit of taxes" is done by so many people. So either your work and live here and pay taxes or have a lot of money and arrange for a tax deal.

I imagined they would do that because, otherwise, someone who's not Swiss and isn'tt bound to Switzerland by working reasons (because he is just a rentier and doesn't want to work actively) could decide to move to another country instead of Switzerland.

Benefits for the country could not be that big of a deal, but there are also not many reason to loose this kind of person:

There are a lot of houses available for renting on swiss websites. Either you have thousands of homeless people (and i believe that's not the case) or there's someone, probably swiss citizen, who could benefit from renting that flat to someone else and make extra money.
This, plus taxes on income (although moderate), plus economical growth for many other citizens (that have shops or work as plumbers or electricians or whatsoever).

And as i said: as long as someone behaves well, proves it has an income that allows him or her to survive without abusing of any sort of wellfare and in the end does not "steal" anybody's job, i thought it was a win-win situation.

It's ok if it doesn't work that way, i'm not questioning. I just wanted to explain that there was a solid basis to believe that the version of the "fiscal deal" i grasped was not that crazy to believe in.

In the end, my goal is different. I'm not asking about the fiscal deal because i just want to pay the lowest amount of taxes possible: I want to live in Switzerland, but i don't want to work there (or anywhere else, really).
I will search an existing thread (or create a new one, if i can't find any that fits my criteria) about "Can i be a rentier in Switzerland?"

Thank you again for all your answers and the time you took in explaining me the situation, i really appreciate it!

roegner 27.08.2017 00:05

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837482)

In the end, my goal is different. I'm not asking about the fiscal deal because i just want to pay the lowest amount of taxes possible: I want to live in Switzerland, but i don't want to work there (or anywhere else, really).
I will search an existing thread (or create a new one, if i can't find any that fits my criteria) about "Can i be a rentier in Switzerland?"

Well, your initial question was to ask about a tax deal.....

Again, if you have pots of money, yes you can live here without having a job. No need to open another thread for that as the answers will be the same.

And what is a lot of money in one country may not be a lot of money in another country.

Ozweego 27.08.2017 00:21

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 2837486)
Well, your initial question was to ask about a tax deal.....

Again, if you have pots of money, yes you can live here without having a job. No need to open another thread for that as the answers will be the same.

And what is a lot of money in one country may not be a lot of money in another country.

At first the web told me to look into this "fiscal deal" as a rentier who's thinking about moving to Switzerland. I wanted to have more precise numbers about income, deposit etc. Once figured that out, i would've moved to a financial specific forum and tried to understand if i could make enough money (with a reasonable amount of risk and low effort) to be eligible for the fical deal, and therefore check if i could live happily in the Confederation.

Now that i've realized that fiscal deal is not for me, i can skip the first part and just figure out wether i can afford to be a rentier in Switzerland without risking too much, not putting much effort and living a decent lifestyle.

I would rather make a new thread / move to an existing one

Phil_MCR 27.08.2017 00:40

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
If you're not a multi-billionaire, maybe you'd like to consider being a UK non-dom instead:

http://www.expertsforexpats.com/expa...tax-in-the-uk/

Ozweego 27.08.2017 00:42

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 2837496)
If you're not a multi-billionaire, maybe you'd like to consider being a UK non-dom instead:

http://www.expertsforexpats.com/expa...tax-in-the-uk/

Already looked into it, it would be happier to be a fully Swiss citizen if possible! i will probably open a thread tomorrow

ivank 27.08.2017 01:27

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
If you're so determined to live in Switzerland, it really shouldn't be hard for an EU passport holder, especially "old EU" like IT. Get a job, any low paying job will do, important only that they'd give you an open ended contract, that'll get your boot in the door. Get a residence permit, get yourself fired and live - EU B permit isn't tied to the job once issued and valid for 5 years. After which you even automatically get a C, after 10 years - passport (but not automatically), just resist the urge to ask for any welfare. Maybe you'll even be able to leech some unemployment benefits (doesn't count as welfare)! Unemployment office would however pester you by asking to send out resumes every week and bring them reports if you ask them for money, it's almost like a job too

But 1M isn't enough to live on in Switzerland. Did you do your math on the cost of living in here already or will you be opening a new thread on that tomorrow too?

Taxes on income from 1M wealth will be tiny - it's at poverty income levels, maybe a few K's tops, so there's really no need to shop for a tax deal. Capital gains shouldn't normally even be taxed at all, and when they are - it's on realized gains if you sell

Ozweego 27.08.2017 01:53

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ivank (Post 2837509)
If you're so determined to live in Switzerland, it really shouldn't be hard for an EU passport holder, especially "old EU" like IT. Get a job, any low paying job will do, important only that they'd give you an open ended contract. Get a residence permit, get yourself fired and live - EU B permit isn't tied to the job once issued and valid for 5 years. After which you even automatically get a C, just resist the urge to ask for any welfare. Maybe you'll even be able to leech some unemployment benefits (doesn't count as welfare)! They would however pester you asking to send resumes out every week if you go to them

But 1M isn't enough to live on in Switzerland. Did you do your math on the cost of living in here already or will you be opening a new thread on that tomorrow too?

Taxes on income from 1M will be tiny though, as it's at poverty income levels, maybe a few k's, so there's really no need to shop for a tax deal. Capital gains shouldn't normally even be taxed at all, and when they are - it's on realized gains if you sell

One of the reasons i want to move to Switzerland is because i'm tired of finding multiple ways to a state that has ing me first as its main goal. I want to be a good citizen, walk with my head held high in the streets, be happy to pay taxes and involve into the political side of the country. Mind my own business and be true to my nature. I don't want to abuse wellfare (i've never been to the hospital once since i was 8 years old) or leech off unemployment money or things like that. I don't want to fool anybody about my intention.

Can i do this?

ivank 27.08.2017 01:55

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozweego (Post 2837516)
Can i do this?

Not for too long on only 1M, Don't underestimate the cost of living here. Go for a cheaper country

Ozweego 27.08.2017 02:47

Re: Information on "fiscale deal"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ivank (Post 2837517)
Not for too long on only 1M, Don't underestimate the cost of living here. Go for a cheaper country

I never meant to live there with only 1 million, the time i used this number was to report what other people were saying about the requiremenets of the fiscal deal. The number on the table is almost 3 times much.


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