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  #21  
Old 22.11.2017, 18:15
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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I'd be interested to know whether it is common practice, in the current rules of second pillar plans, to make use of the possibilities prescribed in this article of the law.
I would say option a is pretty common and normal these days.
Option a : Non-married partner can be a beneficiary after living 5 years together, or when having children.
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  #22  
Old 22.11.2017, 18:18
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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It is noted in the land and building registry (Grundbuch).
Yes, but if the property were located outside Switzerland?
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  #23  
Old 22.11.2017, 18:30
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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Yes, but if the property were located outside Switzerland?
Then you can't use your pension to buy it!

Tom
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  #24  
Old 23.11.2017, 10:02
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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Then you can't use your pension to buy it!

Tom
Well I personally know someone who has withdrawn his second pillar to buy a house in France.
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  #25  
Old 23.11.2017, 11:49
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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Well I personally know someone who has withdrawn his second pillar to buy a house in France.
If its a main residence thats fine, however the money needs to be returned if the property is sold before earliest pension age.
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  #26  
Old 23.11.2017, 12:55
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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@Meloncollie, is this inheritable portion, like in HIAO's scheme, an option that the surviving spouse can elect instead of a life-long spouse's pension?
Both.

The spouse pension option is also based on less than 42 percent of the employee's account.

With both the options available to the surviving spouse, the lump sum and the annual pension, the the bulk of the employee's retirement savings first go back to the company if the employee dies before pensionable age. The amount lost is not just the employer contribution, the amount lost includes a significant chunk of the employee's contribution.
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  #27  
Old 23.11.2017, 15:17
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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Both.

The spouse pension option is also based on less than 42 percent of the employee's account.

With both the options available to the surviving spouse, the lump sum and the annual pension, the the bulk of the employee's retirement savings first go back to the company if the employee dies before pensionable age. The amount lost is not just the employer contribution, the amount lost includes a significant chunk of the employee's contribution.
What you describe matches the notion that some of the contributions are "lost" because they are an insurance premium. The insurance network was there, in place all those years, to cover the risks of disability and children's pensions for disabled people, and widow's and orphans' pensions.

If the insured person lives to see their children grow up and become self-supporting such that the notion of an orphan's pension becomes irrelevant, and if the insured person lives up to normal retirement age without ever becoming disabled, then so much the better, of course. Yet the risk insurance cover for those eventualities is, as it were, spent and gone, in the normal imbalance of the way insurances work.

The individual who makes a claim from the insurance fund profits, and in some cases is so very much better off than what he/she had ever contributed, while the individual who makes no claim on the insurance is left with an emptier pocket and nothing to show for it, other than having enjoyed the security of the risk cover while it lasted. And that is something.

Even so, your OH's scheme differs significantly from the way HIAO's scheme works, and yours seems so much worse!

I hadn't heard of the version HIAO describes, before.
I'd also not realised that the risk insurance portion, as everyone partially covers the risk of all the others, could be as much as 58% of the amounts contributed by both employer and employee. Though I don't, of course, know the numbers, I could understand if this feels like a fat profit for the company running the pension scheme.

Last edited by doropfiz; 25.11.2017 at 13:56. Reason: typo
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  #28  
Old 23.11.2017, 16:00
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

Simple solution: quit your job before you die or retire, then you get 100%.

Tom
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  #29  
Old 23.11.2017, 16:27
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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Simple solution: quit your job before you die or retire, then you get 100%.

Tom
Or get sacked and use your second pillar to keep you alive until your first pillar kicks in.
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  #30  
Old 23.11.2017, 16:57
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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Or get sacked and use your second pillar to keep you alive until your first pillar kicks in.
You cant just do that.
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  #31  
Old 24.11.2017, 00:32
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ikationen.html
Publications by the State Secretariat for Migration SEM.
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  #32  
Old 24.11.2017, 10:10
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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You cant just do that.
So if you lose your job, have no more entitlement to RAV but do have a second pillar, what can / should you do?
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  #33  
Old 24.11.2017, 10:23
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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So if you lose your job, have no more entitlement to RAV but do have a second pillar, what can / should you do?
One might fall back on the social help. But if one is less than 5 years to retirement, then some communes are assuming that the 2nd pillar money can be withdrawn and remove their social assistance until the 2nd pillar money is used up.
Some communes even demand that the 2nd pillar money is then used to pay back the already paid social help money.
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  #34  
Old 24.11.2017, 10:41
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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Simple solution: quit your job before you die or retire, then you get 100%.
If one stops being employed before reaching retirement age (or dying), then the insurance part is over. No commercial pension provider will sell you a retirement plan with the generous conversion rate of too generous 6.8% mandated for 2nd pillar, but maybe a half of it (at today's life expectancy the 6.8% is too high and that's why there are ads everywhere promoting the 2nd pillar lump sum pay out instead of a pension).

The theoretic solution is to continue paying 2nd pillar insurance to Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung BVG, if one can afford it.

So the irony is, that the continued payment is needed not just to cover a rare accident or early death case, but also the most common case, i.e. getting the agreed pension from one's contributions. If a retirement found could only get somehow rid of the older employees...
I wouldn't be surprised if this were also a factor when employing people.
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  #35  
Old 24.11.2017, 21:11
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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If a retirement found could only get somehow rid of the older employees...
The pension fund gets rid of anyone who elects to take a lump-sum at the end. By taking that lump sum, one steps right out of any further cover and that's that, and the pension fund's responsibility ends.
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  #36  
Old 25.11.2017, 07:15
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

The BVG Stiffung is supposed to be the place of last resort.
I have not had any experience yet as I am still in the process of fighting a pension company, but my Rechtsshutz lawyer has said that if I fail, this will be my next port of call.
Does anyone have any experience with this department? From what I understand, they must take your freizügigkeitskonto(s) and provide you with some sort of pension.
(I could have misunderstood this)

http://www.chaeis.net/fzk-freizuegigkeitskonten.html
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  #37  
Old 25.11.2017, 12:10
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

The Auffangeinrichtung BVG should be willing to take the capital in your pillar II and place it into its BVG WO or WG pension fund (German). It would be your decision as to which one:

http://www.chaeis.net/en/lob-occupat...anmeldung.html

The reglement for the WO pension fund is at this link:

http://www.chaeis.net/fileadmin/CHAE...gl_2017_WO.pdf

Appendix (important):

http://www.chaeis.net/fileadmin/CHAE..._WO_Anhang.pdf

The reglement for the WG pension fund is at this link:

http://www.chaeis.net/fileadmin/CHAE...gl_2017_WG.pdf

Appendix (important):
http://www.chaeis.net/fileadmin/CHAE..._WG_Anhang.pdf

WO = Savings without risk insurance
WG = Savings with risk insurance

Also, note that the risk contribution is increasing for 2018, as mentioned on the webpage, linked at top.

Added:
1. It should be possible to transfer your pension capital to an Auffangeinrichtung FZ account as an intermim step and then decide later if the WO or WG is a solution for your needs.

2. Linked below is the general conditions BVG reglement for Auffangeinrichtung pension plans. The general and plan specific reglements and the appendix (Anhang) need to be viewed together:

http://www.chaeis.net/fileadmin/CHAE...ungen_2017.pdf

3. Comment on risk contribution: although the WO plan does not include risk insurance, it has a risk contribution due to long-lived risk and, I expect, the widow and orphans provisions. Generally, people are living longer than is calculated in the government-mandated Umwandlungssatz for the obligatory part of the pension and so a risk reserve is built and maintained.

Last edited by Mullhollander; 25.11.2017 at 13:11. Reason: Added
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  #38  
Old 25.11.2017, 13:46
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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So if you lose your job, have no more entitlement to RAV but do have a second pillar, what can / should you do?
Become full time self employed, then you have 12 months to take the cash
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  #39  
Old 26.11.2017, 23:20
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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The BVG Stiffung is supposed to be the place of last resort.
IIRC there are only 90 days to make decision about continuing insurance with the
Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung BVG.
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  #40  
Old 27.11.2017, 09:43
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Re: Second Pillar Inheritance?

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The Auffangeinrichtung BVG should be willing to take the capital in your pillar II and place it into its BVG WO or WG pension fund (German).
[...]
WO = Savings without risk insurance
WG = Savings with risk insurance
Is WG a sum of WO and WR?
The risk contribution percentage value - it is a percentage of what? Of future benefit?
Can one pay just the "insurance" part, without adding more to the saving part? I imagine that would be the most affordable way for an older unemployed person.

There is a calculator of hypothetical insurance contributions, if one knows what all the terms there mean:
http://www.chaeis.net/bvg-berufliche...gsrechner.html
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