Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21.03.2018, 11:33
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,718
Groaned at 109 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 2,333 Times in 1,097 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Peer to peer lending

Anyone tried it in Switzerland?

I not talking 100k levels that someone like crowdhouse would want for property, but smaller amounts as part of a portfolio
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21.03.2018, 11:45
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 159
Groaned at 13 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 117 Times in 78 Posts
arz is considered a nuisancearz is considered a nuisancearz is considered a nuisance
Re: Peer to peer lending

Isn't it the same thing as "Kredit ohne ZEK"?
Which usually turns out to be "Pay us 1K procedure fee in advance, and then we'll think about your request"

Last edited by arz; 21.03.2018 at 12:42.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21.03.2018, 11:55
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,718
Groaned at 109 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 2,333 Times in 1,097 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
Isn't it the same thing as "Kredit ohne ZEK"?
Which usually turns out to be "Pay us 1K procedure fee, and then we'll think about your request"
No idea what you mean.

I'm talking https://www.cashare.ch or https://lend.ch or others I can find via Google.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 21.03.2018, 12:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 5,187
Groaned at 42 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 6,968 Times in 2,919 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

https://lend.ch/en/crowdfunding/peer-to-peer-lending
Lend's "How it works" page, in English.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21.03.2018, 12:18
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,718
Groaned at 109 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 2,333 Times in 1,097 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
https://lend.ch/en/crowdfunding/peer-to-peer-lending
Lend's "How it works" page, in English.
I understand how it works.

Has anyone *used* one of these sites though.
Happy? Lost money? Steady income? Taken to the cleaners? etc?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21.03.2018, 12:23
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 5,187
Groaned at 42 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 6,968 Times in 2,919 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
I understand how it works.
Oh, yes, I took it that you did.

I posted the link for others who, like me, might not, at first, have been sure to what you were referring. And yes, I'd also be interested in learning about others' experiences with it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 21.03.2018, 12:37
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 159
Groaned at 13 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 117 Times in 78 Posts
arz is considered a nuisancearz is considered a nuisancearz is considered a nuisance
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
No idea what you mean.

I'm talking https://www.cashare.ch or https://lend.ch or others I can find via Google.
I meant that, by Swiss law, all loans must be registered at ZEK. People who don't want their small and mid-size debts registered at ZEK (which may later cause unpleasant questions from big lenders, say, at mortgage negotiation), often google for "Kredit ohne ZEK" and fall in various sorts of traps (waste of time at best)

So I was wondering if "p2p lending" is just another name for "Kredit ohne ZEK" honeypot.

Website design looks very similar ))
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21.03.2018, 13:42
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 10,371
Groaned at 80 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 15,750 Times in 6,974 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
I meant that, by Swiss law, all loans must be registered at ZEK.
Never heard of such a requirement.
A quick search showed that neither the OR, the Konsumkreditgesetz, nor its ordinance mention such a thing.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 21.03.2018, 13:56
grumpygrapefruit's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zuriwest
Posts: 5,999
Groaned at 37 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 15,450 Times in 4,054 Posts
grumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

I've borrowed through this peer to peer funding platform for 2 businesses and I know some people who have lent through it. It's all worked really simply and smoothly both ways.

3 Circle Funding.

I have to say when borrowing, the level of interest we offered was not as enticing to lenders as extra perks (free beer etc).
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank grumpygrapefruit for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 21.03.2018, 13:58
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 159
Groaned at 13 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 117 Times in 78 Posts
arz is considered a nuisancearz is considered a nuisancearz is considered a nuisance
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
Never heard of such a requirement.
A quick search showed that neither the OR, the Konsumkreditgesetz, nor its ordinance mention such a thing.
I'm just repeating what comparis.ch writes about unregistered loans. Sorry, it's in German:

In der Schweiz gibt es grundsätzlich keine «Kredite ohne ZEK oder «ohne Bonitätsprüfung. Alle Kreditbanken sind verpflichtet, sämtliche Kredite der Zentralstelle für Kreditinformation (ZEK) sowie dem Verein zur Führung einer Informationsstelle für Konsumkredit (IKO) zu melden.

Verstösst eine Bank dagegen, kann sie rechtlich belangt werden. Vorsicht also, wenn jemand Sie mit einem Kredit ohne Bonitätsprüfung oder ohne ZEK-Auskunft lockt. Dann steckt nämlich mit hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit ein Betrugsversuch dahinter.


Maybe this has something to do with bank license, and entities who are not banks, can skip this requirement. However, it's not clear where are the money come, then.

I tried few "Kredit ohne ZEK" sites. Nonsense for idiots. They always ask for an advance payment to cover their costs.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank arz for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 21.03.2018, 14:52
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,718
Groaned at 109 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 2,333 Times in 1,097 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
I've borrowed through this peer to peer funding platform for 2 businesses and I know some people who have lent through it. It's all worked really simply and smoothly both ways.

3 Circle Funding.

I have to say when borrowing, the level of interest we offered was not as enticing to lenders as extra perks (free beer etc).
I was looking more at a pooling approach rather then individuals.
Of course, I could pick a lot of small ones myself...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 21.03.2018, 16:07
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 10,371
Groaned at 80 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 15,750 Times in 6,974 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
Maybe this has something to do with bank license, and entities who are not banks, can skip this requirement. However, it's not clear where are the money come, then.

I tried few "Kredit ohne ZEK" sites. Nonsense for idiots. They always ask for an advance payment to cover their costs.
Thank you. Now I found it. It is regulated starting from Art. 22 Konsumkreditgesetz https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a22

But that is not for "all loans", just for those loans which are consumer credits according the law. A private individual giving a loan to ONE other private individual has no obligation to register the loan.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 21.03.2018, 17:42
jbrady's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sunny Aargau
Posts: 1,045
Groaned at 14 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 719 Times in 359 Posts
jbrady has a reputation beyond reputejbrady has a reputation beyond reputejbrady has a reputation beyond reputejbrady has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

How do you collect the bad debts?
My wife is involved in a 10 for 1 scheme - short term payday loan type thing. Asian based.

They are particular on who they lend to and make sure there is a way to get their money back.

Getting involved in Betreibungs is a waste of time in this game - you need Luigi and the boys - or the asian equivilant to ensure prompt repayments.

They seem to do ok for a bunch of low educated ladies.
Maybe start a credit union type thing?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 22.03.2018, 09:05
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,520
Groaned at 248 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 9,054 Times in 4,745 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
But that is not for "all loans", just for those loans which are consumer credits according the law.
That appears to apply to IKO, not ZEK. ZEK collects more data, and not just on natuarl persons (only natural persons can be a consumer).
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 25.03.2018, 08:20
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,718
Groaned at 109 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 2,333 Times in 1,097 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

I looked into the returns, and you might get 2.5% if you lend to risky projects. 1% or less for (the middleman classification) higher quality lending.

Not worth it... I literally get higher in my pension fund (which is above average)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 26.10.2018, 09:43
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Portofino has earned some respectPortofino has earned some respect
Re: Peer to peer lending

My experience with Lend.ch

Short version:
I think it is an attractive investment platform. Over the long term, I think a return in the range of 4% to 5% per year is realistic, which compares well with traditional investments. However, the minimum investment amount is quite high, 1000 Fr. at the moment.

Long version:
I made my first investment on Lend.ch in spring 2016. Since then, I achieved an annual net return of 5.4%. There wasn‘t a single default yet. This will probably change, since most of the projects have a duration of 48 and 60 months and have not been paid back in their entirety yet. (There are shorter and longer ones too, but the bulk of the project seem to be in that range) I assume a default rate of 1% (across the different credit scores I invest in). Even after that, it’s probably the best fixed income investment in Swiss Francs. Note that unsecured personal loans in Switzerland are a less risky thing than in other countries. There is a ceiling on rates (10%) which essentially denies people with a shaky financial situation (subprime risks) access to credit.

What I like about the platform:
Nice user interface
Projects are paid back linearly. That means that every month you get an interest payment and a part of the sum that you lent back. After half of the projects time, say, 30 months, you only have half of the original sum invested. This helps with diversification. You can spread your money over several projects, and you absolutely should do that.

What I don’t like:
You actually have to do an online payment for every single project you invest in
There is no secondary market (you cannot sell an investment to someone else if you need the money)
There isn’t a large choice of projects
Substantial minimal investments

The last point merits a closer look. Due to regulatory reasons, minimum investments in P2P-lending projects in Switzerland are considerably higher than in the rest of Europe (where it is often 10€). The most important thing to remember is that you should spread your total investment across as many projects as possible, reducing the impact of possible defaults.

Recommendations
If you want to invest less than 5‘000 Fr. in total I wouldn’t recommend Lend.ch - wait until the regulation changes. Just investing in one, two or three projects makes no sense, you run too much risk if you’re not diversified.

If you have a larger sum, and don’t need the money in the next few years (!), give it a try. Don’t rush your investments, though. The projects on the Lend platform seem to change rather slowly (just few new ones are added every week) so you should be patient and check the offering for a few weeks before choosing to invest. Go for the safer and shorter projects first if you don’t have previous experience with P2P-lending - defaults hurt more than you think, not just financially, but also your mood (I have made that experience on other platforms). When choosing a project, you can try to guess who will have the largest probability of paying the loan back, there is plenty of information about the borrowers. Stable, long-time employment, owning a house, being married and having kids are obvious signs of stability. I personally don’t look at that though, since these information will already be factured in in the rate the borrower pays. I am sceptical of of large sums borrowed over a long term though.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Portofino for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 26.10.2018, 10:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 639
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 253 Times in 172 Posts
Enohzee is considered knowledgeableEnohzee is considered knowledgeableEnohzee is considered knowledgeable
Re: Peer to peer lending

I used Zopa before (UK based). I got a good return, a good 2-3% over what I'd get at the bank at that time.

I prefer to park my money in the stock market nowadays

Just checked and Zopa offer 4.5% on their standard-risk product. That's pretty damn good in the current environment.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 26.10.2018, 11:34
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 11,051
Groaned at 168 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 15,707 Times in 6,370 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
Anyone tried it in Switzerland?
Yes, but it turned out Lord Dougal's Breakfast was a bad credit risk.



Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 26.10.2018, 11:35
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,347
Groaned at 98 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 1,398 Times in 809 Posts
yacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Peer to peer lending

Quote:
View Post
I looked into the returns, and you might get 2.5% if you lend to risky projects. 1% or less for (the middleman classification) higher quality lending.

Not worth it... I literally get higher in my pension fund (which is above average)
For less risky loans it is hard to compete with banks which have access to basically free money now. So you're competing for what is left.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank yacek for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 27.10.2018, 13:19
Neko's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Vaud
Posts: 85
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 53 Times in 33 Posts
Neko is considered knowledgeableNeko is considered knowledgeableNeko is considered knowledgeable
Re: Peer to peer lending

I helped found a P2P lender in the UK. One problem in Switzerland has been the Swiss market regulations (banks don't like P2P eating their lunch, banks lobby hard). Recent law changes prompted by the rise of "Fintech" has created more opportunities and P2P has space to take off now but the sector is turning out millions, compared to billions in the US or UK, and even on a per capita basis P2P is nascent in Switzerland.

For me the risk is P2P attracts savers looking for higher (riskier) yields and borrowers who'd struggle to get a loan elsewhere and this results in an asymmetry, with the crowd lending to projects with a credit risk that they can't understand. For me P2P works best when it just cuts out the expense of a bank, using tech to connect savers and borrowers for plain things like car loans where the risks are much easier to measure for large baskets of debt, ie the return comes not from any extra risk but from better margins.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Neko for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
peer-to-peer




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Youth group dynamics and "peer pressure" at The Kollegitheater. HauskinsDale Commercial events 0 03.11.2013 18:55
Peer to Peer Sharing.....Legal in Switzerland? Caviarchips TV/internet/telephone 30 30.11.2011 18:56
Peer interviews markalex Employment 37 24.04.2010 16:16
Israeli Peer refused Dubai visa - politics Vs sport jacek Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 4 16.02.2009 19:49
What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads? Lob General off-topic 88 28.01.2008 16:58


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0