Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 15.04.2018, 22:10
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,525
Groaned at 87 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,946 Times in 944 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
...
As this obviously means the banking industry potentially has so much to lose, I think this initiative is very unlikely to be voted in.
And the consumer.

Banks lend out a multiple of their deposits.

10 million on deposit with 20% ratio means around 50 million lent.
That's a lot of mortgages and car loans.

10 million on deposit means under 10 million lent, because Hans Meier may walk in and take 50k out for a new car.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 15.04.2018, 22:34
Meadow's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 252
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 81 Times in 56 Posts
Meadow has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
If I do not understand than clearly something in my math is wrong, please tell me what is?
The point that you are missing is that:

In case A (banks not giving loans from deposits) there is a total of 1000 CHF in the economy.

In case B (loans with 10% reserve) there is a total of 10'000 CHF in the economy. That's 10 times the money fighting for the goods and services available.

When you hear economists talking about "the economy getting overheated", what it means is that there is all the money circling around, but no goods, at which point it implodes. Imagine you took an investment loan and want to build something, but the raw materials are all sold out.

It is all very confusing and I feel it's great that you're asking these questions and not letting go on an easy answer.

For example, I don't think the following comment is entirely correct:
Quote:
If this passes, banks will have to match deposits to lending.
Isn't it already true today? Deposits = Loans + Reserve

I would actually like to understand how are loans supposed to work in a "Vollgeld" system? Does the Vollgeld system mean no loans?

https://www.vollgeld-initiative.ch/f...th_answers.pdf

I gave it a read and I still don't understand it. They say that the SNB will fully control the money supply, and that money will be like shares are today. So if bank goes bankrupt, your money will still be safe. But if that's the case, and the bank does not touch your deposit, then why would it pay you for making such a deposit? Clearly, it wouldn't, like it does not pay you for keeping your stocks. You pay them for custody! And they can't touch your deposit, then where the hell do they get money for the loans? The only idea I can think of is that I take my money and create a bank, and then use this capital to give out loans. Can anybody explain this?

Last edited by Meadow; 15.04.2018 at 22:54.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 15.04.2018, 23:00
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,525
Groaned at 87 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,946 Times in 944 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
...
Isn't it already true today? Deposits = Loans + Reserve
...
I always think of it as Deposits /Reserve = Loans
So 1000 /0.2 (20%) = 5000 to lend

Ignoring risk weighting, reserve, tier x capital ratios, etc and all that jazz.

Quote:
View Post
.
I would actually like to understand how are loans supposed to work in a "Vollgeld" system? Does the Vollgeld system mean no loans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_...ferendum,_2018
As I read it, only with 100% reserve. But the SNB charges negative interest rates to park cash so it'd be interesting how the whole system works given lending will be impaired with a tax system that encourages personal debt.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 15.04.2018, 23:08
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,525
Groaned at 87 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,946 Times in 944 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
....

I gave it a read and I still don't understand it. They say that the SNB will fully control the money supply, and that money will be like shares are today. So if bank goes bankrupt, your money will still be safe. But if that's the case, and the bank does not touch your deposit, then why would it pay you for making such a deposit? Clearly, it wouldn't, like it does not pay you for keeping your stocks. You pay them for custody! And they can't touch your deposit, then where the hell do they get money for the loans? The only idea I can think of is that I take my money and create a bank, and then use this capital to give out loans. Can anybody explain this?
I think they're conflating retail vs other operations.

A straight retail bank should pool savers' money and lend judiciously. So 500 families meagre savings becomes someone's mortgage. Bank charges interest to borrower, returns some to the savers.

Bog standard stuff.

Until the lines blur between this and investment banking . Also see (Glass-Seagall repeal and now ring fencing coming back in the UK.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #45  
Old 15.04.2018, 23:58
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 1,305
Groaned at 141 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 3,466 Times in 1,389 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
The downside of direct democracy - how many people in the street understand what fractional reserve banking or sovereign money is?
(even after reading the blurb?)
It's crazy - money is basically the one shared belief among almost all modern people - far stronger than religion, and maybe even most basic morals. We use it every day, it affects so many aspects of our lives, and yet most people (including myself) barely understand how it and the banking system work.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 16.04.2018, 01:22
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,867
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,575 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
I don't think you know how it works. The bank effectively gives out +/- 1100% of money that people have brought to the bank.
It would appear that you don’t know how it works either!
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 16.04.2018, 01:35
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,867
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,575 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
It's crazy - money is basically the one shared belief among almost all modern people - far stronger than religion, and maybe even most basic morals. We use it every day, it affects so many aspects of our lives, and yet most people (including myself) barely understand how it and the banking system work.
Start with some basic economics and understand the primary purpose of money in the economy, then look at the gold standard and why it restricted economic growth and why it’s reintroduce failed - it was basically full reserve banking. Have a look debt and why the federal reserve were forced to reintroduce long term bond despite the fact they had no need for them - pension funds and insurance companies did! At this point you’ll probably realize the serious consequences of this simplistic proposal is to a modern economy. Enough said.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 16.04.2018, 02:14
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 1,305
Groaned at 141 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 3,466 Times in 1,389 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
It would appear that you don’t know how it works either!
Quote:
View Post
Start with some basic economics and understand the primary purpose of money in the economy, then look at the gold standard and why it restricted economic growth and why it’s reintroduce failed - it was basically full reserve banking. Have a look debt and why the federal reserve were forced to reintroduce long term bond despite the fact they had no need for them - pension funds and insurance companies did! At this point you’ll probably realize the serious consequences of this simplistic proposal is to a modern economy. Enough said.
Are you just selectively reading this thread? Go back and start from the beginning.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 16.04.2018, 07:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Mies
Posts: 632
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 411 Times in 243 Posts
catandmouse is considered knowledgeablecatandmouse is considered knowledgeablecatandmouse is considered knowledgeable
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Does that mean that normal banking is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank catandmouse for this useful post:
  #50  
Old 16.04.2018, 08:37
Meadow's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 252
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 81 Times in 56 Posts
Meadow has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
I always think of it as Deposits /Reserve = Loans
So 1000 /0.2 (20%) = 5000 to lend
Maybe I don't understand you fully, but I see fault in your logic. The deposits are not 1000. The initial deposit is. The bank gives a loan of 800, and then this money comes back to the bank, and so on. Eventually the bank has total deposits of 5000, 1000 of which is reserve and 4000 loans. 5000 = 1000 + 4000.

Quote:
View Post
A straight retail bank should pool savers' money and lend judiciously. So 500 families meagre savings becomes someone's mortgage. Bank charges interest to borrower, returns some to the savers.
Again, I don't believe that's the case in full-reserve banking system. Have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-reserve_banking

Quote:
Banks would be required to keep the full amount of each depositor's funds in cash, ready for immediate withdrawal on demand. Funds deposited by customers in demand deposit accounts (such as checking accounts) would not be loaned out by the bank because it would be legally required to retain the full deposit to satisfy potential demand for payments.
In a way, the current system, where the bank may do some shady stuff with your money, and you only have this "insurance" of up to 100'000 EUR/CHF (which might not get paid if too many banks implode at once), is sick. Much healthier system would be if your digital money would be kept separately by the commercial bank at the custody of the central bank. A bank should not have access to your money, it's obvious to me.

This leaves me still with the question of how loans should work in a full reserve system? Maybe the customers could invest money into a special account, which would be used for giving out loans, and the customer would be aware that it is associated with risk.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Meadow for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 16.04.2018, 08:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,365
Groaned at 171 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 6,834 Times in 3,513 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
A straight retail bank should pool savers' money and lend judiciously. So 500 families meagre savings becomes someone's mortgage. Bank charges interest to borrower, returns some to the savers.

Bog standard stuff.
The SNB (Swiss National Bank) disagrees with that description (the blog availale in German and French only), just as they disagree with Edwin's example. They say the image of a bank as intermediary between savers (depositors, creditors to the bank) and debtors (say the homeowner with a mortgage) is false, or at the very least lacking to the extent that one can justifiably call it false.

Ignoring regulations and stuff for the purpose of this discussion, a bank doesn't need deposits these days. When the bank gives me a loan of 10k, it books 10k into my account (increase of its liabilities) and simultaneously increases its debtors (its assets) by 10k. The balance sheet is still balanced as it must be, it's just that the balance amount has been increased by 10k.

That's all that's necessary, colloquially (but imprecisely) the total money amount in circulation has just been increased by 10k, this is called seignorage. The debtor owes interest on an essentially imaginary value, obviously commercial banks want to keep it that way.

The Initiative wants to take the power of credit creation (colloquially money creation) away from commercial banks and return it to the central banks, as was the case until the early '70ies while the gold standard still applied.

These kinds of gold-based monetary systems (or based gold and silver) has been in place since the invention of money, until the 1970ies when the fractional reserve system was introduced. Those interested in learning why the proposition is a bad idea should read up on why the Bretton-Woods system collapsed and why the gold standard was dropped 40-50 years ago. If Switzerland were to accept the proposition, and if it remained the only country with such a system, it may be implementable simply because Switzerland is small enough. But if this example finds followers, history is bound to repeat.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #52  
Old 16.04.2018, 09:04
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Basel
Posts: 8
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
brunokon has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

"If Switzerland were to accept the proposition, and if it remained the only country with such a system" ...
I think Guernsey already has this system in place ... since 1817?
Thanks for helping me to understand this initiative .. your explanation is succinct.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 16.04.2018, 09:08
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Basel
Posts: 8
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
brunokon has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
If Switzerland were to accept the proposition, and if it remained the only country with such a system ...
I think Guernsey already has this system in place ... since 1817?
Thanks for helping me to understand this initiative .. your explanation is succinct.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 16.04.2018, 09:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 964
Groaned at 232 Times in 165 Posts
Thanked 2,031 Times in 926 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
Does that mean that normal banking is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme?
My dear, all banking is a glorified Ponzi scheme.

Quote:
View Post
The SNB (Swiss National Bank) disagrees with that description (the blog availale in German and French only), just as they disagree with Edwin's example. They say the image of a bank as intermediary between savers (depositors, creditors to the bank) and debtors (say the homeowner with a mortgage) is false, or at the very least lacking to the extent that one can justifiably call it false.

Ignoring regulations and stuff for the purpose of this discussion, a bank doesn't need deposits these days. When the bank gives me a loan of 10k, it books 10k into my account (increase of its liabilities) and simultaneously increases its debtors (its assets) by 10k. The balance sheet is still balanced as it must be, it's just that the balance amount has been increased by 10k.

That's all that's necessary, colloquially (but imprecisely) the total money amount in circulation has just been increased by 10k, this is called seignorage. The debtor owes interest on an essentially imaginary value, obviously commercial banks want to keep it that way.

The Initiative wants to take the power of credit creation (colloquially money creation) away from commercial banks and return it to the central banks, as was the case until the early '70ies while the gold standard still applied.

These kinds of gold-based monetary systems (or based gold and silver) has been in place since the invention of money, until the 1970ies when the fractional reserve system was introduced. Those interested in learning why the proposition is a bad idea should read up on why the Bretton-Woods system collapsed and why the gold standard was dropped 40-50 years ago. If Switzerland were to accept the proposition, and if it remained the only country with such a system, it may be implementable simply because Switzerland is small enough. But if this example finds followers, history is bound to repeat.
Thank you, someone who actually understands how it works.

Question though: The initiative wants to take the power of credit creation away from banks and back to the Central Bank. So, would it not be possible to have a system where the central bank was the one carrying out the credit creation on the intermediary banks account, which was then passed on to the individual from the intermediary bank? Essentially, taking it from the commercial bank's balance sheet and transferring it to the Central Banks balance sheet? Is that possible?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 16.04.2018, 09:21
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Basel
Posts: 8
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
brunokon has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

The document "THE BACKGROUND TO THE NATIONAL REFERENDUM ON SOVEREIGN MONEY IN SWITZERLAND", which details the initiative, and also contains a simplistic diagram on page 5. Here is the link: https://www.vollgeld-initiative.ch/f...witzerland.pdf
My summary from this document is that today money is created by the banks, to their benefit. With Sovereign Money, it will still be created, but for the benefit of the country as a whole.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank brunokon for this useful post:
  #56  
Old 16.04.2018, 09:47
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,365
Groaned at 171 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 6,834 Times in 3,513 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
"If Switzerland were to accept the proposition, and if it remained the only country with such a system" ...
I think Guernsey already has this system in place ... since 1817?
Thanks for helping me to understand this initiative .. your explanation is succinct.
That was dropped in the 1830ies (see the footnote). What appears to have happened (I took little more than a glance) is that Guernsey, lacking access to credit in £, issued its own debt notes which then took over the role of money.

This is probably no coincidence. If you check old bank notes, they feature all attributes of a bond except interest rate and maturity. Since the Guernsey notes were interest-free, they may have been indistinguishable from money if they didn't expire.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 16.04.2018, 11:15
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
tchoupitoulas has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
banks create money
Bank of England: "When a bank makes a loan, for example to someone taking out a mortgage to buy a house, it does not typically do so by giving them thousands of pounds worth of banknotes. Instead, it credits their bank account with a bank deposit of the size of the mortgage. At that moment,new money is created." „Money Creation in the Modern Economy“, in Quarterly Bullen (2014, Q1) https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/me...rn-economy.pdf

Norwegian Central Bank: "The deposit – the money – is created by the bank the moment it issues the loan. The bank does not transfer the money from someone else’s bank account or from a vault full of money. The money lent to you by the bank has been created by the bank itself – out of nothing" https://www.norges-bank.no/en/Publis...17-04-25-dnva/

Deutsche Bundesbank: "sight deposits are created when a bank settles transactions with a customer, ie it grants a credit, say, or purchases an asset and credits the corresponding amount to the customer's bank account in return. This means that banks can create book money just by making an accounting entry" https://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/...s_created.html

Standard & Poor's: "Banks lend by simultaneously creating a loan asset and a deposit liability on their balance sheet. That is why it is called credit “creation” – credit is created literally out of thin air (or with the stroke of a keyboard). The loan is not created out of reserves. And the loan is not created out of deposits: Loans create deposits, not the other way around." -Paul Sheard, Chief Global Economist and Head of Global Economics and Research, Standard & Poor’s (http://positivemoney.org/wp-content/...s-aug-2013.pdf)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank tchoupitoulas for this useful post:
  #58  
Old 16.04.2018, 11:30
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,525
Groaned at 87 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,946 Times in 944 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
...
Ignoring regulations and stuff for the purpose of this discussion, a bank doesn't need deposits these days. When the bank gives me a loan of 10k, it books 10k into my account (increase of its liabilities) and simultaneously increases its debtors (its assets) by 10k. The balance sheet is still balanced as it must be, it's just that the balance amount has been increased by 10k.
...
And if the loan is not paid back?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #59  
Old 16.04.2018, 11:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,365
Groaned at 171 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 6,834 Times in 3,513 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
And if the loan is not paid back?
I don't get your point, please explain.
That quote is on the creation of the credit only, nothing more happens or is supposed to happen. Of course in reality there will more but that's out of scope.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 16.04.2018, 11:57
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 964
Groaned at 232 Times in 165 Posts
Thanked 2,031 Times in 926 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vollgeld initiative - 10 June vote

Quote:
View Post
And if the loan is not paid back?


If 10k isnt paid back? No biggie.


If billions arent paid back?
Then we get a financial crisis, circa 2008.




To be clear, this is one of the reasons for this initiative. The financial crisis was caused by banks 'creating' and lending far too much money, that could never be paid back. That meant that later on, the central bank had to step in to rescue the banks, who had made obscene profits in the meantime. So, the central bank paid out to cover the mistakes of the commercial banks. This initiative would remove the ability of commercial banks to do something like that again, since they themselves would be required to pay interest on their borrowings from the central bank, and the central bank would have far more power to rein in irresponsible lending.


Thats the theory, anyway.

Last edited by J2488; 16.04.2018 at 12:14.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
World Heritage Days 9 - 10 June 2018 Deep Purple Travel/day trips/free time 1 18.02.2018 00:24
Vote today 5th June marton Swiss politics/news 19 06.06.2016 11:42
Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative yacek Swiss politics/news 1072 21.03.2016 20:09
Naturalisation after 10 years; passes parliament vote PaddyG Permits/visas/government 19 12.01.2015 10:16
Dog sitter needed; [10-13th June, Zürich] kmitch78 Pet Trading Post 0 03.06.2011 11:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0