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Old 03.05.2018, 18:47
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More taxes by permit C?

Hi all,

sorry for simple question, but I didn't find answer on it on google or forum:

If I'll get permit C, I'll have to pay more taxes, due to the fact that I'll have to pay income tax instead of my employer, right?

Because as I know under permit B employer pays income tax(Quellensteuer) and I got reduction from AHV\ALC, etc, right? But when I get C, I'll have to fill in return bill and pay income tax(state + canton + commune) IN ADDITION TO AHV\ALC, etc, right?

Or am I wrong, and AHV\ALC\etc ARE income tax?

Please enlighten me, I'm a bit confused.
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Old 03.05.2018, 18:53
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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Hi all,

sorry for simple question, but I didn't find answer on it on google or forum:

If I'll get permit C, I'll have to pay more taxes, due to the fact that I'll have to pay income tax instead of my employer, right?

Because as I know under permit B employer pays income tax(Quellensteuer) and I got reduction from AHV\ALC, etc, right? But when I get C, I'll have to fill in return bill and pay income tax(state + canton + commune) IN ADDITION TO AHV\ALC, etc, right?

Or am I wrong, and AHV\ALC\etc ARE income tax?

Please enlighten me, I'm a bit confused.
Permit C: after 5 years and if you pay more or less depends on where you live

Your employer deducts taxes and social security premiums and will continue to pay social security when you have a C permit.

Whether you have to file taxes with a B permit depends on a.o. your income.

Ask your employer/HR? They know what will be deducted
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Old 03.05.2018, 19:02
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

Your employer deducts taxes and insurances from YOUR salary before you get it. So you're paying them, not the employer. It's the the method of payment that changes - from being taken out of your salary each month to you having to fill in a tax return and then pay whatever you owe once the return is processed. That can also be done monthly, it doesn't have to be paid in a lump sum though you can if you want to.

What you'll pay depends on the canton and gemeinde you live in. There are some deductions you can make which may mean you actually pay less. But there's no guarantee that'll be the case since it depends on your individual circumstances, the canton and gemeinde.
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Old 03.05.2018, 20:33
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

Maybe, if you have income and or a large fortune outside of Switzerland.
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Old 03.05.2018, 21:34
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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Maybe, if you have income and or a large fortune outside of Switzerland.
That would apply now, to be declared on the tax return.
Even if less than 120k annual, there is a form for declaring extra income and wealth

The actual amount of tax (+AHV etc) is exactly the same (unless you pay only Quellensteuer)
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Old 03.05.2018, 23:41
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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That would apply now, to be declared on the tax return.
Even if less than 120k annual, there is a form for declaring extra income and wealth

The actual amount of tax (+AHV etc) is exactly the same (unless you pay only Quellensteuer)
Assume OP is talking about switching from Quellensteuer.
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Old 04.05.2018, 07:30
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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If I'll get permit C, I'll have to pay more taxes, due to the fact that I'll have to pay income tax instead of my employer, right?
Wrong. Your employer pays your income tax for you at the moment by deducting it from your salary. When you are on a C permit, the income tax won't be deducted from your salary - the tax office will come to your for it.

The tax basis for B permit holders is not always the same as for C holders, so you may pay slightly more or slightly less tax than before.
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Old 04.05.2018, 08:42
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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Wrong. Your employer pays your income tax for you at the moment by deducting it from your salary. When you are on a C permit, the income tax won't be deducted from your salary - the tax office will come to your for it.

The tax basis for B permit holders is not always the same as for C holders, so you may pay slightly more or slightly less tax than before.
It's exactly the same if you fill in a tax return and don't pay only quellensteur
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Old 04.05.2018, 08:46
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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Assume OP is talking about switching from Quellensteuer.
Agree, but if a tax return is done then the tax is corrected.

If you never correct your Quellensteuer, then it will change.
But you'll fill in a tax return at less than the EF minimum wage...

Saying "there is a difference" is only true in one case ( no tax return under a B permit)
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Old 04.05.2018, 10:04
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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It's exactly the same if you fill in a tax return and don't pay only quellensteur
I am looking forward to get the C permit! As my wife has some income as self-employed, we are doing tax forms since we arrived in CH, so that hassle is known... But from her job she has a very varying income, so one month a lot of quellensteuer, other month about 10 SFR. Also my 13th month in november will cost me a lot o quellensteuer in that month. From next year on, with C permit, all the income is in one big pot and I am quite sure the paid taxes will be lower (Zürich city).
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Old 04.05.2018, 10:09
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

I somehow doubt that the tax will be lower. Quellensteuer is an average in the Kanton, the city of Zurich has one of the highest taxes in that Kanton.

https://statistik.zh.ch/internet/jus...uerfuesse.html
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Old 04.05.2018, 10:16
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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I somehow doubt that the tax will be lower. Quellensteuer is an average in the Kanton, the city of Zurich has one of the highest taxes in that Kanton.

https://statistik.zh.ch/internet/jus...uerfuesse.html
Thanks for the reply. Yes, people told me that indeed, but I did some calculations on the basis of our taxes 2015. Based on our anual gross income, obtained from the tx form we filled in, we would have to pay about 5000CHF according to https://www.steueramt.zh.ch/internet...desteuern.html, but (adding all our quellensteuer together) we paid about 6000CHF. Not a big difference, but I am sure not afraid of going to C permit
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Old 04.05.2018, 12:16
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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I somehow doubt that the tax will be lower. Quellensteuer is an average in the Kanton, the city of Zurich has one of the highest taxes in that Kanton.

https://statistik.zh.ch/internet/jus...uerfuesse.html
Wait a second... So when you go from withholding tax (Quellensteuer) to no withholding tax, you still have to do more or less the same amount of tax contribution + the other contributions like AHV/ALV so the "effective" net salary (In layman's terms the money you get to spend) stays the same?

Whenever I looked at salary calculators with the "withholding tax" option, I assumed once you go C permit, you'd get to keep the withholding tax for yourself and only have to pay the other contributions
Silly me.

So once you're on C permit, who's paying AHV/ALB/Pension fund?
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Old 04.05.2018, 12:32
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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Wait a second... So when you go from withholding tax (Quellensteuer) to no withholding tax, you still have to do more or less the same amount of tax contribution + the other contributions like AHV/ALV so the "effective" net salary (In layman's terms the money you get to spend) stays the same?

Whenever I looked at salary calculators with the "withholding tax" option, I assumed once you go C permit, you'd get to keep the withholding tax for yourself and only have to pay the other contributions
Silly me.

So once you're on C permit, who's paying AHV/ALB/Pension fund?
Your employer, by law.
AHV + ALV + UVG + NBU + Pension (BVG) are all fixed rates (and country and employer level)

Your tax changes based on Gemeinde (and kids, married or whatever, other dependents, property, other income, moon phase, airspeed of a swallow) so you're on your own there.
Your money to spend is the same except for the generic Quellensteuer rate compared to the "standard" (tax return) rates

It's important to remember that Quellensteuer can be corrected (up or down) if you
- have to fill in a tax return (points 10 and 12 in the link)
- request a source tax correction (point 9 in the link)
In both these cases, your tax becomes "standard"
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Old 04.05.2018, 13:04
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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Wait a second... So when you go from withholding tax (Quellensteuer) to no withholding tax, you still have to do more or less the same amount of tax contribution + the other contributions like AHV/ALV so the "effective" net salary (In layman's terms the money you get to spend) stays the same?

Whenever I looked at salary calculators with the "withholding tax" option, I assumed once you go C permit, you'd get to keep the withholding tax for yourself and only have to pay the other contributions
Silly me.

So once you're on C permit, who's paying AHV/ALB/Pension fund?
The info is already there, so I hope not to contradict it.

"Wrong. Your employer pays your income tax for you at the moment by deducting it from your salary. When you are on a C permit, the income tax won't be deducted from your salary - the tax office will come to your for it. "

So, AHV, ALV Pension fund are still deducted through the employer. He wont deduct the quellensteuer anymore, but you will have to pay a "similar" value to the tax office.
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Old 04.05.2018, 13:55
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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The info is already there, so I hope not to contradict it.

"Wrong. Your employer pays your income tax for you at the moment by deducting it from your salary. When you are on a C permit, the income tax won't be deducted from your salary - the tax office will come to your for it. "

So, AHV, ALV Pension fund are still deducted through the employer. He wont deduct the quellensteuer anymore, but you will have to pay a "similar" value to the tax office.
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Your employer, by law.
AHV + ALV + UVG + NBU + Pension (BVG) are all fixed rates (and country and employer level)

Your tax changes based on Gemeinde (and kids, married or whatever, other dependents, property, other income, moon phase, airspeed of a swallow) so you're on your own there.
Your money to spend is the same except for the generic Quellensteuer rate compared to the "standard" (tax return) rates

It's important to remember that Quellensteuer can be corrected (up or down) if you
- have to fill in a tax return (points 10 and 12 in the link)
- request a source tax correction (point 9 in the link)
In both these cases, your tax becomes "standard"
Yeah makes sense. But in my mind I was like "Oh once I get a C permit, I'll have like an extra ~800 CHF a month".

Better that I found out now
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Old 04.05.2018, 14:22
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

Standard taxation can be lower, higher, or nearly the same as tax at source (Sub 120k income a.k.a English Forum poverty line).

Tax at source:
Is a cantonal average, has implied flat rate deductions, is calculated based on gross salary,

Standard taxation:
Depends on commune, has flat rate as well as individual deductions, is calculated on (net income - deductions).

So depending on the possible deductions, your actual net salary and the actual tax rate of your commune you might pay more or less tax with regular taxation compared to tax at source alone.

For those on tax at source but who must still file a tax return, they either get reimbursed or must pay the difference.

Best is to download your cantons tax return software and start playing with it. Then you will get a better picture what it means to switch to C and being regular taxed.
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Old 04.05.2018, 15:22
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

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Yeah makes sense. But in my mind I was like "Oh once I get a C permit, I'll have like an extra ~800 CHF a month".

Better that I found out now
You sort of will, in that the tax office doesn't bill you monthly. When you're taxed at source the funds come out up front. So yes, your paycheck will look bigger but don't go out and buy a Bugatti just yet.

In Bern we get tax bills 3-4 times per year. Best to save up so when that bill for X thousand arrives you don't have a heart attack wondering how to pay.
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Old 04.05.2018, 15:38
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

I get 9 monthly payment slip - May to the following January.

Good idea to put money aside - work out what you pay for taxes from your current salary slips and put that into a separate bank or post office account once you change over. Or even start now, it's always useful to have something stashed away for a rainy day as they say. You'd be surprised at how quickly it can build up.
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Old 04.05.2018, 15:48
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Re: More taxes by permit C?

Kind of wondering.
Are you trying to decide if you want a C Permit based on how much tax you'll have to pay?
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