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  #41  
Old 12.11.2020, 16:04
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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Interesting comment, looks like it did just before you wrote the post.

FEET has beaten SMT & Smithson on 1 week, 1 month & 3 months.

FEET has beaten Fundsmith & Smithson on 3 / 6 month view


FEET 1 week + 4.34, 1 Month 9.32, 3 months 17.81, 6 months + 31.63
Smithson 1 week +2.6, 1 Month 0, 3 months 4.77, 6 months 22.67
Fundsmith 1 month 0, 3 months +4.4 , 6 months 12.36
SMT 1 week -3.2, 1 Month -2.46, 3 months + 13.62
As I mentioned earlier - I sold out of Pacific Horizon due to a very large premium over NAV of nearly 20%. Its gone down from c. 750 to 650 very rapidly since - very lucky timing this time.

I was going to go for JP Morgan China Growth and Income Trust, but might consider a bit in FEET also - the conceptual overlap is very low between the two.

Edit: My wife had £5k rental income which I've invested on a spur of the minute decision into FEET.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 12.11.2020 at 16:15.
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  #42  
Old 12.11.2020, 17:16
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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Interesting comment, looks like it did just before you wrote the post.

FEET has beaten SMT & Smithson on 1 week, 1 month & 3 months.

FEET has beaten Fundsmith & Smithson on 3 / 6 month view
Unfortunately, I got too greedy and waited for a lower price on FEET which never arrived. I managed to build up to only 2/3 of my desired position.

A weaker dollar is a tailwind for emerging markets. Of course, covid counters that to some extent, but if covid challenge is dealt with and dollar remains weak, then EM could be set to outperform.
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  #43  
Old 27.11.2020, 23:14
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

Actually bought Smithson for the first time on Wednesday.

I looked at their top 10 holdings and realised that 6 of them were on my watch list (of which 2 I own/owned).

The rest, I never bought as I thought the price was too high. Since FeverTree is their biggest holding, I sold most of my overweight position in FEVR and bought SSON (and GAW).

EDIT: and of course, FEVR goes up 8% today after I sell it!

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 01.12.2020 at 14:31.
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  #44  
Old 14.04.2021, 23:03
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

I manage my (non US citizen) daughter & grandson's ISAs, SIPPs and trust and have put ALL the allowed 2021-22 ISA and SIPP contributions into SSON the week of 6th April. Not sure that I understand the graph, and I'd never have heard of either but for this forum. They've had Fundsmith for a while now. Unfortunately, unlike Fidelity (US) Hargreaves doesn't offer sophisticated performance data and graphs to work with and one has to invent her own, using Excel or some proprietary software.

I won't be around to see it, but applying the standard Excel Future Value formula to the 8-yo's JSIPP, and assuming he continues to contribute £2,880 (£3,600) p.a. for the next 60 years, he will either be a millionaire (£1.5 million) if the fund gains 5% a year or ten times that (£15 million) at 10%. Of course unless he emigrates HMRC will seize 55% over the £1.071 mn limit, or whatever the limit is in 2082.

I maxed out all the ISAs, JISAs and SIPPs with SSON April 6. That leaves the various accounts in total with 2/3 Fundsmith and 1/3 SSON, but over time that will change. There are also some flutters with Baillie Gifford, iShares Emerging Markets and Vanguard FTSE Developed Europe ex-UK.

I've used Legal and General US Index as the holding entity.

As for grandson's JSIPP, here are some FV games played on Excel assuming £2,880 (£3,600) contributed every April 6 from birth to age 67:
Future Value £1,553,089 at 5% for 60 years
£15,492,563.62 at 10% for 60 years

The Excel FV formula is easily found online.


Obviously if the 55% penalty tax on SIPPs over £1,073,000 doesn't change he'll have to emigrate to a place like the USA that has favourable tax treaty provisions for pensions.


I have another daughter who is a doctor, married to another doctor. The NHS will have to do something or she will retire very young. She, like the rest of the family, is Swiss/British and she also has US citizenship (which her husband and children do not since she never lived in the USA).
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  #45  
Old 15.04.2021, 10:27
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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I manage my (non US citizen) daughter & grandson's ISAs, SIPPs and trust and have put ALL the allowed 2021-22 ISA and SIPP contributions into SSON the week of 6th April. Not sure that I understand the graph, and I'd never have heard of either but for this forum. They've had Fundsmith for a while now. Unfortunately, unlike Fidelity (US) Hargreaves doesn't offer sophisticated performance data and graphs to work with and one has to invent her own, using Excel or some proprietary software.

I won't be around to see it, but applying the standard Excel Future Value formula to the 8-yo's JSIPP, and assuming he continues to contribute £2,880 (£3,600) p.a. for the next 60 years, he will either be a millionaire (£1.5 million) if the fund gains 5% a year or ten times that (£15 million) at 10%. Of course unless he emigrates HMRC will seize 55% over the £1.071 mn limit, or whatever the limit is in 2082.

I maxed out all the ISAs, JISAs and SIPPs with SSON April 6. That leaves the various accounts in total with 2/3 Fundsmith and 1/3 SSON, but over time that will change. There are also some flutters with Baillie Gifford, iShares Emerging Markets and Vanguard FTSE Developed Europe ex-UK.

I've used Legal and General US Index as the holding entity.

As for grandson's JSIPP, here are some FV games played on Excel assuming £2,880 (£3,600) contributed every April 6 from birth to age 67:
Future Value £1,553,089 at 5% for 60 years
£15,492,563.62 at 10% for 60 years

The Excel FV formula is easily found online.


Obviously if the 55% penalty tax on SIPPs over £1,073,000 doesn't change he'll have to emigrate to a place like the USA that has favourable tax treaty provisions for pensions.


I have another daughter who is a doctor, married to another doctor. The NHS will have to do something or she will retire very young. She, like the rest of the family, is Swiss/British and she also has US citizenship (which her husband and children do not since she never lived in the USA).
There are no limits on ISA, it's not like a pension & remains totally tax free forever. 10 years ago Hargreaves Lansdown had more than 10 clients with in excess of £10 million in their SIPPS. The max contribution from PEP's/ISA's had even around £720k at that point.

Annual ISA limit for ISA is £20k, has been for a few years, had I remained in the UK, 100% of my ligdqid wealth would be in ISA's.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 15.04.2021 at 12:10. Reason: ISA no limits
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  #46  
Old 15.04.2021, 11:32
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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"There are no limits on SIPPS, it's not like a pension & remains totally tax free forever. 10 years ago Hargreaves Lansdown had more than 10 clients with in excess of £10 million in their SIPPS. The max contribution from PEP's/ISA's had even around £720k at that point.

"Annual ISA limit for ISA is £20k, has been for a few years, had I remained in the UK, 100% of my [liquid?] wealth would be in ISA's"
That's true of American Roth IRAs (although the TCJA of 2017 instituted a 10-year drawdown mandate ("RMB") after inheritance by for most nonspousal over-18 beneficiaries). It seems not to be so for UK SIPPs. (Roth IRAs are tax-free in the UK and treated as pensions under the Tax Treaty, art. 17-18. https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...elief/dt19939w )

"The lifetime allowance is a limit to the amount you can save in your SIPP or other pension over your lifetime. The allowance is currently £1.0731 million – you will pay tax on any pension savings you make in excess of this. The excess is taxed at 25% (plus Income Tax) as income or 55% as a lump sum. Through Tilney we have expert financial planners who could help you to protect your lifetime allowance." https://www.bestinvest.co.uk/pension...sipp-allowance

My (single mum) daughter's wealth, such as it is (she is the low-paid mother of an autistic child) is in her ISA, her SIPP, her Roth IRA from prior work, her son's JISA, his JSIPP and his VPT which owns a large fraction of the family flat that is immune to IHT (status election with HMRC form VPE1; taxed at child's rate, meaning zero if the £12,570 personal allowance isn't reached). There is unfairness in the taxation at 55% (for lump sums) on SIPPs which have been funded by low-paid workers over many years and who got only a basic rate rebate from tax in the first place. That said, I was commenting on the magic of compounding in the case of JISAs, of which there are very few in existence. 60,000 was the count when I started his after my grandson's birth.

All that would fall apart if son (who is bilingual with preference for French) moved to Switzerland (whose passport he has) or the USA (he has an arguable claim to US citizenship, long story.) There are lots of people in his situation prior to RBG's 2017 judgment in the Morales-Santana case, which changed the law: https://www.afsa.org/citizenship-and...tune-geography (prior law). Anyway, his Mum scarcely lived in the USA and renounced over US taxation of assets in the prior paragraph, FBAR and FATCA being the least of her concerns but PFIC destroying any chance to invest in, say, Fundsmith or SSON outside a SIPP.

Last edited by Caryl; 15.04.2021 at 11:50.
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  #47  
Old 15.04.2021, 12:16
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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That's true of American Roth IRAs (although the TCJA of 2017 instituted a 10-year drawdown mandate ("RMB") after inheritance by for most nonspousal over-18 beneficiaries). It seems not to be so for UK SIPPs. (Roth IRAs are tax-free in the UK and treated as pensions under the Tax Treaty, art. 17-18. https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...elief/dt19939w )

"The lifetime allowance is a limit to the amount you can save in your SIPP or other pension over your lifetime. The allowance is currently £1.0731 million – you will pay tax on any pension savings you make in excess of this. The excess is taxed at 25% (plus Income Tax) as income or 55% as a lump sum. Through Tilney we have expert financial planners who could help you to protect your lifetime allowance." https://www.bestinvest.co.uk/pension...sipp-allowance

My (single mum) daughter's wealth, such as it is (she is the low-paid mother of an autistic child) is in her ISA, her SIPP, her Roth IRA from prior work, her son's JISA, his JSIPP and his VPT which owns a large fraction of the family flat that is immune to IHT (status election with HMRC form VPE1; taxed at child's rate, meaning zero if the £12,570 personal allowance isn't reached). There is unfairness in the taxation at 55% (for lump sums) on SIPPs which have been funded by low-paid workers over many years and who got only a basic rate rebate from tax in the first place. That said, I was commenting on the magic of compounding in the case of JISAs, of which there are very few in existence. 60,000 was the count when I started his after my grandson's birth.

All that would fall apart if son (who is bilingual with preference for French) moved to Switzerland (whose passport he has) or the USA (he has an arguable claim to US citizenship, long story.) There are lots of people in his situation prior to RBG's 2017 judgment in the Morales-Santana case, which changed the law: https://www.afsa.org/citizenship-and...tune-geography (prior law). Anyway, his Mum scarcely lived in the USA and renounced over US taxation of assets in the prior paragraph, FBAR and FATCA being the least of her concerns but PFIC destroying any chance to invest in, say, Fundsmith or SSON outside a SIPP.
Sorry I meant ISA for which there is no limit, no tax relief & no taxation ever. A far better long term investment than a pension, where 75% of the FUND is ultimately taxed as income if below the threshold. I can't see the point of ever investing in a pension unless the 20k ISA limit has been used first, or very close to retirement where your marginal tax rate will fall from 40/45% to 0%/20% & still have some of the 0%/20% band available.

Turning the pension into a drawdown at 55 is possible, so thats the age where the limit is important. No need to retire or take an income, just the 25% cash. Once in Drawdown it's no longer subject to the lifetime limit as the calculation is already done.
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  #48  
Old 15.04.2021, 14:16
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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Sorry I meant ISA for which there is no limit, no tax relief & no taxation ever. A far better long term investment than a pension, where 75% of the FUND is ultimately taxed as income if below the threshold. I can't see the point of ever investing in a pension unless the 20k ISA limit has been used first, or very close to retirement where your marginal tax rate will fall from 40/45% to 0%/20% & still have some of the 0%/20% band available.

Turning the pension into a drawdown at 55 is possible, so thats the age where the limit is important. No need to retire or take an income, just the 25% cash. Once in Drawdown it's no longer subject to the lifetime limit as the calculation is already done.
Good points. But remember that a SIPP counts as a pension in other countries, an ISA is just another asset giving off taxable gains and income. Anybody with a USA connection needs to plan accordingly and in fact can put away an IRA or Roth IRA or Roth conversion at the same time as a SIPP, so long as the earnings are taxed in both countries and the foreign earned income exclusion isn't claimed. No PFIC (investment fund, ETF, common investment, etc.) problem with SIPPs, ISAs (unless invested in individual shares) cause tax grief with the IRS.

A low-paid worker with parents who have substantial assets can put 100% of her income under £40k into a SIPP and then claim Working Tax Credit and perhaps Child Tax Credit. Meanwhile her parents can contribute to an ISA which won't be counted for any UK purpose besides bankruptcy and alimony. Not sure how IHT works with SIPPs, Roths or ISAs. I have a question into HL about naming beneficiaries of SIPPs, no reply yet. A Roth beneficiary can often be named online. And in the USA there is the concept of "transfer on death" accounts (sometimes called "Totten Trusts"), another way to avoid probate. Pensions are normally exempt in bankruptcy in the USA: in the UK it's far more complicated and only certain professional pensions are exempt.
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  #49  
Old 15.04.2021, 15:11
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

Found on hl via Google (site:hl.co.uk sipp beneficiary) not with any help from hl:

"What happens to my SIPP when I die?

"Any money left in your SIPP when you die can normally be passed to your heirs free of inheritance tax. Any withdrawals they then make will usually be tax free if you died before you were 75. If you die when 75 or older, any withdrawals will be taxed as their income.

"HL SIPP clients, including those in drawdown, can nominate or change their beneficiaries by simply logging in to their account and choosing ‘Account Settings’. Your nomination will then be applied instantly."
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Old 17.04.2021, 16:38
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

£82k a day for running a fund: is Terry Smith worth that kind of money?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8...oney-stq0jdtks
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Old 17.04.2021, 18:18
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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£82k a day for running a fund: is Terry Smith worth that kind of money?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8...oney-stq0jdtks
According to the market, he is.
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  #52  
Old 17.04.2021, 18:21
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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£82k a day for running a fund: is Terry Smith worth that kind of money?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8...oney-stq0jdtks
He is earning a lot more than that, thats his 61% of the UK LLP's profits, meanwhile about £156 million went to Mauritius to cover some investment management charges.

Not bad for a part time business he set up in 2010 aged 57.
Whilst he has about £1/2 billion invested in the funds, his share of the management company would be worth more than that. He is trying to find a tax efficient means to give that to people working in the firm when he dies.

Woodford got paid £50k a day for losing people lots of money.
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  #53  
Old 17.04.2021, 19:39
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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£82k a day for running a fund: is Terry Smith worth that kind of money?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8...oney-stq0jdtks
Compared to Hamers, Weber, Ermotti (UBS AG) and Gottstein, Rohner, Thiam, Doughan (Credit Suisse)?

I trust you know that answer. Even though those poor sods only earn a measily 20-30k£ per day.
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  #54  
Old 17.04.2021, 23:08
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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Compared to Hamers, Weber, Ermotti (UBS AG) and Gottstein, Rohner, Thiam, Doughan (Credit Suisse)?

I trust you know that answer. Even though those poor sods only earn a measily 20-30k£ per day.
But they are/were running a bank.

Which, according to Terry, can't even be done properly with a profit in the long run without the government bailing them out on a regular basis...
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Old 18.04.2021, 15:30
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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But they are/were running a bank.

Which, according to Terry, can't even be done properly with a profit in the long run without the government bailing them out on a regular basis...
The difference with Terry is he risked his money to set up a business & it's paid off. Very different to an employee of a large organisation that has been around for many years, just a hired gun with no skin in the game, just a huge pay off if they fail.
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  #56  
Old 18.04.2021, 20:53
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

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But they are/were running a bank.

Which, according to Terry, can't even be done properly with a profit in the long run without the government bailing them out on a regular basis...
Every member of the management and the board of a profit-maximising company, which includes the exchange listed ones, has one order only:
increase shareholder value

This applies just as much to TS as it does to the people I mentioned, and to any other among companies like the the SP500 companies. However those I listed keep demonstrating their incompetence.

That won't change until they become personally liable and criminally prosecutable for their incompetence. This used to be the case in the US until some two decades ago, many members of the board and management served prison time as a consequence of the Savings-and-Loan crisis for example.
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Old 24.11.2021, 01:23
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Re: Fundsmith FEET 2018

What’s your take on FEET performance so far?
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