Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02.09.2018, 13:43
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: UK, GER, CH
Posts: 94
Groaned at 139 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 22 Posts
PeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthy
Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Hi everyone,

I will be starting a new job soon and the company I work for has its own pension scheme i.e. it is not provided by a third party like Swiss Life.

I already have a pension with Swiss Life. If I merge this pension with that of my new employer; if I decided to leave CH in a few years down the line would there be any constraints?

Can I still withdraw half the pension or all of it after Brexit? Is it more risky, if say - the company went bankrupt for example?

I am looking for clarification in this context but for Switzerland and not the UK: https://www.ft.com/content/029031ee-...5-9e5580d6e5fb

Thanks for any help you can give.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02.09.2018, 14:58
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
Hi everyone,

I will be starting a new job soon and the company I work for has its own pension scheme i.e. it is not provided by a third party like Swiss Life.

I already have a pension with Swiss Life. If I merge this pension with that of my new employer; if I decided to leave CH in a few years down the line would there be any constraints?

Can I still withdraw half the pension or all of it after Brexit? Is it more risky, if say - the company went bankrupt for example?

I am looking for clarification in this context but for Switzerland and not the UK: https://www.ft.com/content/029031ee-...5-9e5580d6e5fb

Thanks for any help you can give.

Peter
I doubt you will get a defined benefits scheme here.
Pensions are not controlled by the company they don't own or directly control the assets.
Withdrawing depends on the insurance requirement in your new country, I managed 100% aged 52 when I moved to Malta. It depends.
Can't read your link but loads of nonsense about Brexit & pensions, Currently UK pensions are paid worldwide, not just in the EU.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03.09.2018, 10:12
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,019
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 345 Times in 262 Posts
bill_door has an excellent reputationbill_door has an excellent reputationbill_door has an excellent reputationbill_door has an excellent reputation
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
Peter

If you are concerned about Brexit then I would suggest a nice warm cave (c; There is way to much chaos about to even know where to start.


For all things Swiss Pensions look at this Federally maintained website:


https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement-provision-system/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03.09.2018, 13:00
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: UK, GER, CH
Posts: 94
Groaned at 139 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 22 Posts
PeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthy
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
If you are concerned about Brexit then I would suggest a nice warm cave (c; There is way to much chaos about to even know where to start.


For all things Swiss Pensions look at this Federally maintained website:


https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement-provision-system/
My focus is more or are there any limitations if I take the company pension which is not provided by a 3rd party? For example, can they prevent me from withdrawing it if I decided to leave CH in a few years from now?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03.09.2018, 13:17
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,306
Groaned at 89 Times in 85 Posts
Thanked 19,497 Times in 8,622 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
My focus is more or are there any limitations if I take the company pension which is not provided by a 3rd party?
Please refer to fmf's post above:

Quote:
View Post
...Pensions are not controlled by the company they don't own or directly control the assets...
In other words, most pensions are handled/provided by a 3rd party.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03.09.2018, 13:35
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,753
Groaned at 107 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,424 Times in 1,138 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Pension rules are determined by law and by EU-CH bilateral agreements.
- Who manages the pension is irrelevant
- Whether DB or DC is irrelevant

Then, the pension fund+assets are separate from your employer.
You'll have either a pension managed by one of
- An outsource collective provider (typical for smaller companies)
- A separate organisation/foundation linked to, but fully discrete from, your employer (larger companies typically)

This is not the UK where every Tom, Dick, and Maxwell can (apparently, based on headlines) plunder the pension fund.

The withdrawal rules are well documented here already, for EU and non-EU.
When/if the UK leaves the EU I'd imagine these straightforward rules still apply...
__________________
Don't let Sean Connery teach your dog to sit
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 03.09.2018, 15:41
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,778
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
My focus is more or are there any limitations if I take the company pension which is not provided by a 3rd party? For example, can they prevent me from withdrawing it if I decided to leave CH in a few years from now?
Please see the informative information at: https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement-provision-system/ If you have the impression that you are going in circles, than it is time to click through ch.ch and start reading

Instead of clicking through the website ch.ch you can also read those two leaflets:
https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/890.e
https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...zialvers-e.pdf
(The last one is available in many other languages https://www.bsv.admin.ch/bsv/en/home...nd-depart.html)


PS: Are there any companies left which offer Defined Benefit?
To answer my own question: Migros PK https://www.mpk.ch/vorsorge/aktivversicherter

PPS: Here a story (in German) of what happened to the Swissair Pension Fund and how the retired employees of the airline company which went bankrupt 2002 are doing
https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtsch...story/28717059
tl;dr: Pretty damn well, all pensioners got a 7k and 16k bonus payment in 2016 and 2017 respectively.
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 03.09.2018, 16:50
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post

In other words, most pensions are handled/provided by a 3rd party.
It's a legal requirement it's held by a 3rd party, it may be called XXXX company pension fund bit it's independent of the company.
Quote:
View Post
This is not the UK where every Tom, Dick, and Maxwell can (apparently, based on headlines) plunder the pension fund.
It's never been legally possible in the UK, Maxwell pension fund was defrauded. In theory nothing to stop fraud occurring in CH.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 03.09.2018, 17:34
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,521
Groaned at 500 Times in 371 Posts
Thanked 12,622 Times in 6,557 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
I will be starting a new job soon and the company I work for has its own pension scheme i.e. it is not provided by a third party like Swiss Life.
See FMF above.
Quote:
View Post
I already have a pension with Swiss Life. If I merge this pension with that of my new employer; if I decided to leave CH in a few years down the line would there be any constraints?
That's not under your control, the "old" money will mandatorily be transferred to the new entity that handles the pensions.
Quote:
View Post
Can I still withdraw half the pension or all of it after Brexit? Is it more risky, if say - the company went bankrupt for example?
Withdrawing is unrelated to Brexit at all, or anybody's nationality for that matter. Contact your HR for detailed information as some details may differ from what applies in general.
Quote:
View Post
I am looking for clarification in this context but for Switzerland and not the UK: https://www.ft.com/content/029031ee-...5-9e5580d6e5fb
Behind paywall.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04.09.2018, 13:53
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: UK, GER, CH
Posts: 94
Groaned at 139 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 22 Posts
PeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthy
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
See FMF above.
That's not under your control, the "old" money will mandatorily be transferred to the new entity that handles the pensions.
Withdrawing is unrelated to Brexit at all, or anybody's nationality for that matter. Contact your HR for detailed information as some details may differ from what applies in general.

Behind paywall.
Say if they did have silly rules like it is not possible to withdraw, could I transfer the pension after leaving the firm to another company?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04.09.2018, 14:01
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,263
Groaned at 373 Times in 313 Posts
Thanked 14,401 Times in 6,673 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
Say if they did have silly rules like it is not possible to withdraw, could I transfer the pension after leaving the firm to another company?
In principle you have to do that.

And the silly rules are trying to prevent people from blowing their pension funds when they are still working and then claiming social help when retiring (yes, you can use the money to buy a house)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04.09.2018, 14:16
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,778
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
Say if they did have silly rules like it is not possible to withdraw, could I transfer the pension after leaving the firm to another company?
I sound like a broken record: Read the information we linked to. Many things regarding occupation pensions are mandated by the law. For ex. the rules about when withdrawal is possible and also that the pensions funds must be forwarded to a new employer.

For your convenience once again the most important sources of information:
https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement-provision-system/
https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/890.e
https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...zialvers-e.pdf
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 04.09.2018, 20:45
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: UK, GER, CH
Posts: 94
Groaned at 139 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 22 Posts
PeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthyPeterSoliman is considered unworthy
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
In principle you have to do that.

And the silly rules are trying to prevent people from blowing their pension funds when they are still working and then claiming social help when retiring (yes, you can use the money to buy a house)
To clarify, if I decided to leave Switzerland in a few years time to return back to the UK; it would be possible to transfer the pension to another Swiss provider that would allow me to withdraw half of it?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04.09.2018, 20:55
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,778
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
To clarify, if I decided to leave Switzerland in a few years time to return back to the UK; it would be possible to transfer the pension to another Swiss provider that would allow me to withdraw half of it?
Read here:
https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/880.e
and here:
https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...zialvers-e.pdf
and here:
https://www.ch.ch/en/withdraw-pension-early/
and also here:
https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/10.03.e
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04.09.2018, 21:09
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
To clarify, if I decided to leave Switzerland in a few years time to return back to the UK; it would be possible to transfer the pension to another Swiss provider that would allow me to withdraw half of it?
What do you mean by half of it?
Possibly everything depending on if you require insurance but likely all non mandatory contributions. Many people won't have any non mandatory to withdraw, as the company only pays pension as required by law..
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 04.09.2018, 21:29
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
Absolutely true, mine operates 'as if it were fully part of the company' with the same email address suffixes as the company.
You need to look at the people authorised to sign, company signatories won't be able to act alone.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 04.09.2018, 21:47
HIAO's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bellevue
Posts: 1,349
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 3,455 Times in 964 Posts
HIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond reputeHIAO has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
You need to look at the people authorised to sign, company signatories won't be able to act alone.
My employer's pension fund is large enough that we have our own independent foundation with a pension committee.

The trustees are 50% employer nominated and 50% employee elected.

I'm an employer representative.

Decisions are by majority vote, (of the attendees) at each pension committee meeting.

Yet, the physical movement of cash, or implementing asset allocation decisions, requires just two banking signatories. I'm one and I sit beside another.

In other news, I've won the lottery and I'm relocating to the Maldives as soon as my winnings *ahem cough* come through.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04.09.2018, 21:51
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
My employer's pension fund is large enough that we have our own independent foundation with a pension committee.

The trustees are 50% employer nominated and 50% employee elected.

I'm an employer representative.

Decisions are by majority vote, (of the attendees) at each pension committee meeting.

Yet, the physical movement of cash, or implementing asset allocation decisions, requires just two banking signatories. I'm one and I sit beside another.

In other news, I've won the lottery and I'm relocating to the Maldives as soon as my winnings *ahem cough* come through.
I believe an independent committee is required in all cases, I worked for a company with less than 30 employees, it had a pension committee, pension ultimately managed by Swiss Life.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 04.09.2018, 22:59
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,019
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 345 Times in 262 Posts
bill_door has an excellent reputationbill_door has an excellent reputationbill_door has an excellent reputationbill_door has an excellent reputation
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined Benefit Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
To clarify, if I decided to leave Switzerland in a few years time to return back to the UK; it would be possible to transfer the pension to another Swiss provider that would allow me to withdraw half of it?



In most cases, especially between the EU and CH, there are international treaties and Financial Regulations that govern what can and can't be done with your pension. The info on this has already been provided in many of the links already provided. ALL providers in CH must follow the CH regulations, irrespective of whether they manage it themselves, or outsource to the larger providers.



In the medium term, i.e. Brexit, it would not be expected that those regulations (especially on the CH side) would change without a treaty ratification. When Brexit happens, don't expect your pension savings to be magically open in a free for all, including the potential tax implications.


There are usually only two possibilities to get early access to your pension cash (including the tax implications!):


1.) You move to (AND CAN PROVE IT) a 'third' country without a pension/retirement treaty with CH
2.) Cash can be withdrawn exclusively for the purchase (or in part) of your family occupied home. Definitely in CH normal practice, there are cases where this has been done in at least other EU countries (DTTs?), but I am not familiar with, or know the complexities of implementing this from the CH side.

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04.09.2018, 23:18
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension enquiry - Defined https://www.eng Pension vs Defined Contribution Pension

Quote:
View Post
There are usually only two possibilities to get early access to your pension cash (including the tax implications!):


1.) You move to (AND CAN PROVE IT) a 'third' country without a pension/retirement treaty with CH
2.) Cash can be withdrawn exclusively for the purchase (or in part) of your family occupied home. Definitely in CH normal practice, there are cases where this has been done in at least other EU countries (DTTs?), but I am not familiar with, or know the complexities of implementing this from the CH side.

This is hugely misleading & spouted by all & sundry.
I left CH aged 52, went to live in an EU country & was able to take my entire pension. I read & understood what the law said, despite being told it was impossible by my pension provider. The question is 'are you required to be insured in your new country of residence" thats it. Switzerland for example only requires 'EMPLOYEES' to be insured.

Your also incorrect about only for your home in CH, your main residence anywhere in the EU is fine. Nothing to do with DTI's

Here is a thread https://www.englishforum.ch/finance-...s-pension.html
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2nd pillar / semi-autonomous pension funds / AXA Winterthur pension changes Dr Mick Insurance 10 13.04.2018 20:25
Pension Slip for Previous Pension Fund (forwarded?) babel Finance/banking/taxation 18 16.09.2015 13:06
Self Employed Pension - must I have a pension (3rd pillar)? bobo_97 Business & entrepreneur 10 07.08.2011 09:07
UK Final Salary Pension vs New Pension in Switzerland Nick_Stone12358 Finance/banking/taxation 4 14.12.2010 19:01
Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland movingtozug Finance/banking/taxation 94 28.04.2010 13:47


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0