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  #21  
Old 22.12.2019, 12:52
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Hello again,

I see many people in this forum praise the fact that they save taxes when they save money to the 3a pillar, lets say through a normal bank account (no insurance). But I really don't get the point:

When you open the 3a account in your 60-65, you have to pay lump sum tax (ok, its not too high), but then don't you have to pay tax on this amount in the traditional way? Lets say, if you have earned 60k in that year and you also open a 50k 3a pillar you will be taxed for 110K, right? Or am I missing something here? Where is the tax saving?
Yes, the withdrawal is taxed at a special low rate (canton dependent), not at your income tax rate.
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  #22  
Old 22.12.2019, 14:00
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

I wanted to go with VZ (VermŲgenszentrum), I even have the application signed and all the paperwork for moving part of my other savings there, from ZKB.

But I kind of got cold feet and ran out of time and didn't want to rush it towards the end of the year so I paid another 6k (and change) into my PostFinance almost-no-interest 3a account...

VZ's 3rd pillar account does look interesting because it's relatively low on fees (0.68% if I understood it correctly).

With ZKB's fees for my portfolio investment account (I think that's what it's called in English), I could almost as well invest the money with FundSmith...
VZ has slightly lower monthly fees and less transaction fees, as far as I understand it.
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  #23  
Old 22.12.2019, 15:36
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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I wanted to go with VZ (VermŲgenszentrum), I even have the application signed and all the paperwork for moving part of my other savings there, from ZKB.

But I kind of got cold feet and ran out of time and didn't want to rush it towards the end of the year so I paid another 6k (and change) into my PostFinance almost-no-interest 3a account...

VZ's 3rd pillar account does look interesting because it's relatively low on fees (0.68% if I understood it correctly).

With ZKB's fees for my portfolio investment account (I think that's what it's called in English), I could almost as well invest the money with FundSmith...
VZ has slightly lower monthly fees and less transaction fees, as far as I understand it.
I guess the fees you are mentioning are based on the investment scheme you are following? Just a simple savings account (without buying stocks etc.) should not have any fees, at least in postfinance..
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  #24  
Old 22.12.2019, 15:38
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Yes, the withdrawal is taxed at a special low rate (canton dependent), not at your income tax rate.
Thanks! Do you know if there is an online table for this (per kanton)?

And you are not talking about the lump sum tax, right?
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  #25  
Old 22.12.2019, 16:00
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Thanks! Do you know if there is an online table for this (per kanton)?
Here a calculator.
https://www.postfinance.ch/en/privat...m-payment.html



It is the same tax rate for Pillar 2 as for Pillar 3a.
If you are taxed at source (Permit B or if you are abroad) you must enter the domicile of the institution where the money is.
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  #26  
Old 22.12.2019, 16:49
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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I guess the fees you are mentioning are based on the investment scheme you are following? Just a simple savings account (without buying stocks etc.) should not have any fees, at least in postfinance..

Of course, there are no obvious fees for the no-frills PF 3a pillar account.

Doesn't mean there aren't any hidden costs that you are paying.
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  #27  
Old 22.12.2019, 20:52
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Here a calculator.
https://www.postfinance.ch/en/privat...m-payment.html



It is the same tax rate for Pillar 2 as for Pillar 3a.
If you are taxed at source (Permit B or if you are abroad) you must enter the domicile of the institution where the money is.
Thanks, I know this link.. This is the lump sum payment when you open the account at 65. But don't these money also accumulate in the amount you will enter in the tax report?
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  #28  
Old 22.12.2019, 21:15
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Thanks, I know this link.. This is the lump sum payment when you openclose the account at 65. But don't these money also accumulate in the amount you will enter in the tax report?
The Pillar 3a does neither have to be reported as wealth and nor has interest or dividends be reported as income. You only have to report the payments and deduct it from the income.
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  #29  
Old 22.12.2019, 22:29
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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The Pillar 3a does neither have to be reported as wealth and nor has interest or dividends be reported as income. You only have to report the payments and deduct it from the income.
i was talking about when you open the account at 65 or so..
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  #30  
Old 22.12.2019, 22:49
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

Iím tired of ZKBís annual fees so Iíve switched to VIAC today.

Letís see if a digital product really is better, at least until they get bought up by a major player....
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  #31  
Old 23.12.2019, 08:29
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Iím tired of ZKBís annual fees so Iíve switched to VIAC today.

Letís see if a digital product really is better, at least until they get bought up by a major player....
VIAC is a product of the WIR Bank, which is not really a small player.
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  #32  
Old 23.12.2019, 09:06
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

I use VIAC since late last year, invest 97% using a custom strategy, and so far have a ROI of approx. 13%.

I have two more accounts with regular banks and the money is just sitting there against 0% interest basically.
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  #33  
Old 23.12.2019, 09:57
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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i was talking about when you open the account at 65 or so..
You can't open a pillar 3a account at that age. En contraire, you will get kicked out of all your existing accounts (be aware that multiple payouts in the same years are taxable like a single payout). After that you can do with the money what ever you want and it is part of your regular, taxable wealth.
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  #34  
Old 23.12.2019, 15:03
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

...

Edit: thanks I got one now.

Last edited by Troublawesome; 23.12.2019 at 16:18.
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Old 24.12.2019, 22:28
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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You can't open a pillar 3a account at that age. En contraire, you will get kicked out of all your existing accounts (be aware that multiple payouts in the same years are taxable like a single payout). After that you can do with the money what ever you want and it is part of your regular, taxable wealth.

Sorry, I did not mean to say "open" but I actually meant when you get the money out from a pillar 3a account at 65. Given that every 3a account when you get the money out will be taxed by the lump sum + then it will be taxed normally, I do not see any tax saving benefit. Whatever you save now by putting 6.8k every year, you pay back at 65.

Unless I am missing sth here.. Of course investing the 3a money is a different story. I am just not convinced with the tax saving argument.
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  #36  
Old 24.12.2019, 23:26
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Unless I am missing sth here..
When you pay into the pillar 3a you lower your taxable income by the same amount. The tax you save depends on your marginal tax rate.

Lump sum taxation at payout time depends only on the payout amount. In Zurich a payout of CHF 100000 would be taxed with ~5%. In most cases this is much less than the marginal tax rate.
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  #37  
Old 05.01.2020, 13:45
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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When you pay into the pillar 3a you lower your taxable income by the same amount. The tax you save depends on your marginal tax rate.

Lump sum taxation at payout time depends only on the payout amount. In Zurich a payout of CHF 100000 would be taxed with ~5%. In most cases this is much less than the marginal tax rate.
Yes, but won't the pillar 3a amount increase the amount of taxable income on the year of payout?
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  #38  
Old 05.01.2020, 14:50
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Yes, but won't the pillar 3a amount increase the amount of taxable income on the year of payout?

It's not calculated like that.
There is a separate tax for that.

Apparently, this a calculator you can use:

https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/de/...l#kapitalbezug
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Old 15.03.2020, 12:13
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

I have found this article:
https://thepoorswiss.com/third-pilla...t-switzerland/

and especially this one:
https://thepoorswiss.com/viac-best-third-pillar/

very useful with a lot of information and several comparisons.

Some information might be outdated though:
-I read in the comments that PostFinance is offering an option with higher exposure on stocks market (but still the TER is slightly higher)
-initially VIAC was available only for smartphone but apparently now you can use it from computers as well.

One additional note:
Apparently the interests you get from investing in the 3rd pillar will be taxed....so I am not sure anymore about the real advantages of the 3rd pillars as you could invest those money in stocks/ETF/mutual funds that won't be taxed on capital gain.
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  #40  
Old 15.03.2020, 18:14
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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One additional note:
Apparently the interests you get from investing in the 3rd pillar will be taxed....so I am not sure anymore about the real advantages of the 3rd pillars as you could invest those money in stocks/ETF/mutual funds that won't be taxed on capital gain.
Where is this information coming from?
Dividends in the 3rd pillar are untaxed. (or have been to my knowledge, until I read your post)
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