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  #41  
Old 15.03.2020, 23:41
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Where is this information coming from?
Dividends in the 3rd pillar are untaxed. (or have been to my knowledge, until I read your post)

https://thepoorswiss.com/third-pilla...t-switzerland/

the article itself at some point says:
"Now, a slight twist. When you withdraw your third pillar, you will pay taxes on the amount. + some additional details.

In addition to that expand the comment section and look for the comment from :

Thomassays:
January 14, 2020 at 9:38 am

he provides two sources, and I quickly checked the 2nd one:

https://www.graffenried.ch/de/ueber-...intragId=20041

You can check the thread related to that comment as well.
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  #42  
Old 28.04.2020, 12:46
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

Hello all,

reading through this and leveraging (ideally) you guys' better expertise on this, I was wondering if anyone has seen/tried the new service called 'frankly' and if this is better/comparable to VIAC that seems to have been the best standard lately.

https://www.frankly.ch/en/home.html
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  #43  
Old 28.04.2020, 13:25
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Hello all,

reading through this and leveraging (ideally) you guys' better expertise on this, I was wondering if anyone has seen/tried the new service called 'frankly' and if this is better/comparable to VIAC that seems to have been the best standard lately.

https://www.frankly.ch/en/home.html

Seems like they're just selling Swisscanto funds with a fancy fintech-type app and decent fees (about 50 basis points).



Better than many, but VIAC seems to be more flexible? Interested to hear other thoughts
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  #44  
Old 28.04.2020, 14:37
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Hello all,

reading through this and leveraging (ideally) you guys' better expertise on this, I was wondering if anyone has seen/tried the new service called 'frankly' and if this is better/comparable to VIAC that seems to have been the best standard lately.

https://www.frankly.ch/en/home.html
Here a decent review/comparison to VIAC:
https://investinghero.ch/frankly-zkb-3a-review/

Note, the funds frankly are showing on their page seem to be very "young" (without much history), offer very little info, and hedged to CHF, so keep that in mind too.
E.g. NT: https://products.swisscanto.com/prod...157782?lang=de

Last edited by dbucar; 28.04.2020 at 14:48.
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  #45  
Old 28.04.2020, 14:51
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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https://thepoorswiss.com/third-pilla...t-switzerland/

the article itself at some point says:
"Now, a slight twist. When you withdraw your third pillar, you will pay taxes on the amount. + some additional details.

In addition to that expand the comment section and look for the comment from :

Thomassays:
January 14, 2020 at 9:38 am

he provides two sources, and I quickly checked the 2nd one:

https://www.graffenried.ch/de/ueber-...intragId=20041

You can check the thread related to that comment as well.
Well that for sure - it's a deferred tax account - and it's well known how it works.
However taxes when withdrawing are much (much) lower than the income tax being applied to your salary.
But dividends themselves are NOT taxed within the 3a account, like they are outside of 3a investments.
Nor are the capital gains, in one case or the other.

To be honest, I am not sure what do you mean with "interests" in your comment.
Perhaps if you invest in a cash "savings" account, where the interest is miserable 0.15% - but same taxation applies here I suppose - only at withdrawal.
Whereas, if I am not wrong, that same interest would be taxed (at 35% WHT) outside of the 3a account (if it amounts to above 200CHF IIRC).

Last edited by dbucar; 28.04.2020 at 15:07.
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  #46  
Old 20.06.2020, 17:11
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Here a decent review/comparison to VIAC:
https://investinghero.ch/frankly-zkb-3a-review/

Note, the funds frankly are showing on their page seem to be very "young" (without much history), offer very little info, and hedged to CHF, so keep that in mind too.
E.g. NT: https://products.swisscanto.com/prod...157782?lang=de
Interesting review.

Last edited by roegner; 21.06.2020 at 18:41. Reason: Sorry, that looks like advertising
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  #47  
Old 21.06.2020, 18:07
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

Frankly, Swisscanto, and thereby frankly, should be ashamed of themselves.

It starts with you paying 2% upfront (one-time cost) for the priviledge to enable ZKB fleecing you. frankly themselves take 0.48% annually. On top of that ZKB uses a multilayer structure that makes it impossible to know the real costs of the individual funds they hold, neither TER nor turnover are published. And of course you'll never know which funds were held at a given time, which makes it impossible for you, the customer, to challenge their investments let alone the costs they charge you for and reduce your investment's performance.

Swisscanto used to be good, relatively low cost with fair-to-Ok performance. After ZKB took them over a few years ago they introduced that multilayer structure, they're now impossible to measure them up in advance. They don't even provide past performance data any more (at least not readily available). In my experience multilayer structures exist for one aim only: to keep the customer in the dark and make it easier to fleece them.

Obviously that can mean one thing only:
Expect subpar performance.

I was their customer before VIAC entered the market. Nowadays, with that multilayer structure and complete obscurity I avoid them like the plague.

Last edited by Urs Max; 21.06.2020 at 18:21.
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  #48  
Old 03.09.2020, 13:31
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

Just a warning for those thinking of investing in VIAC.

I originally invested the max possible % of my portfolio in US funds. 35% in a NASDAQ ETF and 25% in an SP500 ETF. Naturally these have outperformed lousy Swiss ETFs which constitute the remainder of the portfolio, and so they've increased in terms % of the portfolio over time.

Without asking me, VIAC have re-calibrated my investments so that the Swiss ETFs take up the % I originally entered (i.e. as little as possible). Presumably they are charging me trading fees to make my portfolio worse to add to insult. I'm not best happy about this. Sure it might have been buried in some T&Cs somewhere, but I prefer providers to make evidently clear to me if they are going to do this sort of thing.

Probably will avoid pillar 3a going forward completely. Perhaps I will save for the next few years before I buy a property - but I will take my money out then to form the deposit and not reinvest in pillar 3a going forward.

I really hope the Swiss recalibrate their pensions laws some time. Not being to choose your own investments is ludicrous. Doubly so in pillar 3a.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 03.09.2020 at 13:41.
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  #49  
Old 03.09.2020, 13:33
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

Rebalancing occurs monthly.
Are you sure you are not talking about that?

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Just a warning for those thinking of investing in VIAC.

I originally invested the max possible % of my portfolio in US funds. Naturally these have outperformed lousy Swiss funds, and so they've increased in terms % of the portfolio over time.

Without asking me, VIAC have re-calibrated my investments so that the Swiss funds take up the % I originally entered. I'm not best happy about this. Sure it might have been buried in some T&C somewhere, but I prefer providers to make evidently clear to me if they are going to do this sort of thing.

Probably will avoid pillar 3a going forward completely.
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  #50  
Old 03.09.2020, 13:44
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Rebalancing occurs monthly.
Are you sure you are not talking about that?
Ah well - they must have missed something on my account as it definitely hadn't happened before and I was a long way from where I started.

To be fair - this rebalancing is prominently displayed on their website, so my bad. That said, its something for people to be aware of.
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  #51  
Old 03.09.2020, 13:55
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Ah well - they must have missed something on my account as it definitely hadn't happened before and I was a long way from where I started.

To be fair - this rebalancing is prominently displayed on their website, so my bad. That said, its something for people to be aware of.
https://viac.ch/en/faq-all/what-does...ng-day-mean-2/

"On this day, your pension assets will be returned to the target weighting of your strategy if the deviation is large enough"

It looks like the deviation was not large enough before
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  #52  
Old 03.09.2020, 14:19
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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https://viac.ch/en/faq-all/what-does...ng-day-mean-2/

"On this day, your pension assets will be returned to the target weighting of your strategy if the deviation is large enough"

It looks like the deviation was not large enough before
.

Hopefully I've at least updated other people who are as lazy as me about the VIAC strategy. They are still the best pillar 3a provider despite this.
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  #53  
Old 03.09.2020, 14:36
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

I'm with VIAC as well since a few years. Opened a new portfolio this year and made the full deposit in March, which has turned into CHF 8805 already. The app works very well and customer support is very responsive / effective.
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  #54  
Old 03.09.2020, 15:07
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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I'm with VIAC as well since a few years. Opened a new portfolio this year and made the full deposit in March, which has turned into CHF 8805 already. The app works very well and customer support is very responsive / effective.
What was the full deposit amount?


Thanks!
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  #55  
Old 03.09.2020, 15:11
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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what was the full deposit amount?


Thanks!
6826.
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  #56  
Old 03.09.2020, 15:15
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Maximize CSIF World ex CH and CSIF SPI Extra. Everything else can be had cheaper through external brokers.
I went for maximizing the NASDAQ (35%) and then the SP500 (25%) ishares trackers. Sure the fee is very slightly more, but the return will have been higher than glinaa's strategy, and it will be more years than not. There's a lot of junk in the World ex CH, and a lot less junk in the NASDAQ and SP500. I think index huggers focus too much on price of investing and too little on what they are buying personally.

Historical SP500 and NASDAQ performance is similar so you could consider reversing those percentages (or just going 30-30). I thought with Covid, the NASDAQ would be a better option and it has proved so. I'd be tempted to swap them for next years investment.

For the Swiss stuff, I haven't a clue what is best, but went for 20% SMI then 17% SPI Extra. You could maybe think about reversing that too, but really both will be pretty bad.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 03.09.2020 at 15:28.
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  #57  
Old 03.09.2020, 16:27
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Historical SP500 and NASDAQ performance is similar so you could consider reversing those percentages (or just going 30-30). I thought with Covid, the NASDAQ would be a better option and it has proved so. I'd be tempted to swap them for next years investment.
Careful

If I look at 10 March 2000

NASDAQ 5048
S&P 500 1395

23 June 09

Nasdaq 1477 (-72%)
S&P 500 921 (-32%)

You lost twice as much with NASDAQ from bubble highs over the next 9 years, today looks similar in term of tech bubble highs.

3 April 2020

Nasdaq 7373 (+48% over 20 years)
S&P 500 2488 (+169% over 20 years
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  #58  
Old 03.09.2020, 18:34
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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Careful

If I look at 10 March 2000

NASDAQ 5048
S&P 500 1395

23 June 09

Nasdaq 1477 (-72%)
S&P 500 921 (-32%)

You lost twice as much with NASDAQ from bubble highs over the next 9 years, today looks similar in term of tech bubble highs.

3 April 2020

Nasdaq 7373 (+48% over 20 years)
S&P 500 2488 (+169% over 20 years
Every penny I am investing at present is in tech-light stuff. I've just put around 20k into smithson!

I did the pillar 3a back in late march or early april - something like that, so I think its hard to say that it was the wrong decision at the time. We aren't talking about big sums anyway - 10% of pillar 3a, so 700 odd CHF difference.

Although I sung the praises of SMT previously - and it has done really well for me even with Tesla crashing and burning in the last few days im now doing FMF style investment - pilling into Terry, my equivalent of gold.
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  #59  
Old 04.09.2020, 09:40
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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.

Hopefully I've at least updated other people who are as lazy as me about the VIAC strategy. They are still the best pillar 3a provider despite this.
This is one of the main reasons holding me back from investing my 3a with them, and not forsaking it for my own investments......agree they are still by far the best, but the Swiss regulations which I assume mandate this rebalancing are rather restrictive.


btw we have a Pillar 2 balance and their product for this (freizuzigkeitskonto) is similar: fantastic vs the competition
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Old 04.09.2020, 17:41
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Re: Best 3rd pillar account investment possibilities

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This is one of the main reasons holding me back from investing my 3a with them, and not forsaking it for my own investments......agree they are still by far the best, but the Swiss regulations which I assume mandate this rebalancing are rather restrictive.


btw we have a Pillar 2 balance and their product for this (freizuzigkeitskonto) is similar: fantastic vs the competition
I'd love to be able to get my pension out of the mitts of the pension managers here. Sadly I love the job so it'll stay badly invested with them for the foreseeable.
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