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  #21  
Old 14.12.2018, 14:39
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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You want to go for the Swiss pass? You know that you will forfeit the Dutch one?

Congrats by the way :-)
Thank you! We are not thinking much about naturalization yet, but indeed someone told me that I would lose my Dutch pass.

What I wonder, how does the Dutch government know about a Dutch getting a Swiss pass?
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  #22  
Old 14.12.2018, 14:42
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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What I wonder, how does the Dutch government know about a Dutch getting a Swiss pass?
Very simple, you have to show your permit and Wohnsitzbescheinigung to get a new passport. That will tell them what nationalities you have.

Only chance here is when you are married to a Swiss person.
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  #23  
Old 14.12.2018, 14:54
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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Very simple, you have to show your permit and Wohnsitzbescheinigung to get a new passport. That will tell them what nationalities you have.

Only chance here is when you are married to a Swiss person.
Aha, yes, of course Well, maybe my wife will become Swiss and then I will be married to a Swiss person!
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  #24  
Old 14.12.2018, 22:39
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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As ridiculous as wrong. It is CHF 10'100 per child. See page 22 https://www.steueramt.zh.ch/internet...017_HA+DEF.pdf
Wow that is great news - my 2nd one was born only this year but the way I understood the tax form was 10K max for the family - for once I’m happy to be wrong 😄
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  #25  
Old 04.03.2019, 16:36
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

...resuming the story.

In december I filled a complaint with the Quellensteuer department, requesting a redistribution of our deductions. So, no changes to the income side (that one is clearly defined in the law), just a "smarter" distribution of our deductions that would save provide us with about 700 extra francs. We got a reply, with the redistribution being denied.

looking at the quellensteuer law I already found it a "grey area", as no clear regulations are given how to discount the deductions from the monthly incomes. Their answer for not doing it was something as "it is our experience that we split the total deductions over 12 equal parcels, to avoid that eg a 3te Säule is discounted in one single month... so that discounts get applied to maximize the tax discount - until now this has not been challenged". Based on this willingness to maximize our tax return that I applied for the smarter redistribution of deductions...

In our complaint we also mentioned we were willing to go the their office, defend our claim. That is based on the law, paragraph 141, point 2: "Der Steuerpflichtige ist berechtigt, seine Einsprache vor dem kantonalen Steueramt mündlich zu vertreten." I asked if I can still go there And of course there is the "rekurs", but that can get expensive.

best regards,
Erik
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  #26  
Old 05.05.2019, 11:36
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

As the tax office is slow, I am also not hurrying to update the progress , but there is some.

I searched for court cases of Quellensteuer refunding, and so found an attorney office in Zürich that liked our case and we agreed they do the "Rekurs", which was submitted about 2 months ago.

The reasoning is based on the fact that Switzerland signed the (freizügigskeitabkommen) FZA to allow free movement of people in EU. https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...648/index.html

This forbids discrimination on taxing, subsidies etc for EU people. So there were some cases where people subject to Quellensteuer (a Swiss living in France but working in Genf, a Portuguese couple living and working in Neuchatel) were considered "discriminated" as they paid more taxes than a Swiss / C-Permit. Probably due to these cases the law is going to change, from 2021 onwards every person subject to quellensteuer can request a NOV (nachträgliche ordentliche Veranlagung).

https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/do...-id-70404.html

I saw that another quellensteuer case took about 6 months to be analysed and finished, so we probably have a couple months to go
https://www.strgzh.ch/assets/entsche..._2018_1_nj.pdf

Best, Erik
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  #27  
Old 05.05.2019, 12:02
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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You did the math quite well! Indeed, 126k income and 83k deductions, for 43k taxable. The deductions on the normal tax declaration include work, pension, childcare, 9000*3 Kid lump sum... So, you agree that if I would be in standard taxation, I would have to pay about 2400?

[...]

So, to add some further data: our gross income (on which source at tax is calculated) was 142k. The valid discounts (childcare, pension schemes) were 27k, so there remains 115k to tax. If we wpuld divide this equally over me and my wife, and equally over 12 months, we get a monthly salary of ~4800 each (115k / 24). For this salary the tax rate is 1.99%, or 95. Multiply this by 24, one gets 2280, which is close to the 2400 I calculated earlier. So, indeed, if loan is split 50:50 and over 12 equal monthly values, the tax at source is somewhat lower than normal taxation. But due to unequal monthly pays (bonus, etc) and and unequal split, our source tax got at almost 4000
I think you grossly underestimate how much tax you would have to pay on 115k net as a married couple.
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  #28  
Old 05.05.2019, 12:51
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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Wow that is great news - my 2nd one was born only this year but the way I understood the tax form was 10K max for the family - for once I’m happy to be wrong 😄
this is for 3rd party child care and you have to be able to show the bills. In other words: you'll have the pay the 10k first before deducting it from tax.
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  #29  
Old 05.05.2019, 13:22
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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this is for 3rd party child care and you have to be able to show the bills. In other words: you'll have the pay the 10k first before deducting it from tax.
That was already clear. The problem is we pay already more than 10K/yr for krippe for one of them.

BTW I admire your effort Erik! I totally agree everyone should be able to do a normal tax declaration if there is a difference with quellensteuer. Challenges to the system like yours have led to the future change in the rules which is an accomplishment and useful for future expats, especially where both married partners are working (yay to the modern family!)

Last edited by mgosia; 05.05.2019 at 13:40. Reason: Missed the future rule change
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  #30  
Old 05.05.2019, 14:58
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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I think you grossly underestimate how much tax you would have to pay on 115k net as a married couple.
Thanks for the reply. a lot of figures were thrown around here, so it is probably hard to follow, but the 115k in case is our gross incomes minus the discounts that are not taken in the lump sum from quellensteuer (like pension schemes, childcare). A lot of the lump sum discounts in the normal tax declaration (work expenses, both working, kids, etc) were not taken into account in the 115k figure, but they are in the quellensteuer tarifs, which are therefore different than the ordinary tarifs.

it is confusing, I know. Only Mgosia interpreted everything right
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  #31  
Old 05.05.2019, 15:02
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

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That was already clear. The problem is we pay already more than 10K/yr for krippe for one of them.

BTW I admire your effort Erik! I totally agree everyone should be able to do a normal tax declaration if there is a difference with quellensteuer. Challenges to the system like yours have led to the future change in the rules which is an accomplishment and useful for future expats, especially where both married partners are working (yay to the modern family!)
Thank you It is being an interesting experience. I am already "well known" at the Steueramt, as on my second last call the lady said: I see you called us a lot, can't you just leave it and let us work?

Well, the case was not judged yet, lets see what comes out!
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  #32  
Old 17.05.2019, 16:20
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

This week we got a reply from the Steuerrekursgericht and we "won". "Der Rekurs wird gutgeheissen" - so they will do a "Nachträgliche ordentliche Veranlagung", just as they do with the >120k income people.

Furthermore, we got 200 francs each as "Parteientschädigung", but the lawyers bill was way higher than that But in the end, with the extra return, we will be able to buy some extra beers

Personally I am happy that in the end I was right and there was actually discrimination. Painful that it had to come to a Rekurs, but as the lawyer said, the State has nothing to lose in these cases and they will say "no, no, no". It is the tax payer that has to cover the costs and risks for maybe winning against them.

But, as said earlier, from 2021 onwards everyone can request a NOV if they think it is worthwhile.

Wish you a nice weekend!
Erik
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  #33  
Old 17.05.2019, 20:27
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Re: Recalculating - Neuveranlagung Quellensteur ZH

Congratulations!!! Go on and have that beer
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