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  #21  
Old 14.01.2019, 14:22
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

Don't forget that in the UK, there's quite a generous allowance on inheritance tax.

TBH, IHT can be considered something of a voluntary tax as with the proper planning, it is possible to avoid completely.
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  #22  
Old 14.01.2019, 14:31
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

Been in CH 10 years out of last 20.
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Old 14.01.2019, 14:36
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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at 68 and 73 ... the clock is ticking.
My great-aunt made it to 102.5 (despite being a smoker), my grandfather to 103.3, and my wife's great uncle is looking at 104 this summer, so your clock may still have more than a few ticks left.

Tom
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  #24  
Old 14.01.2019, 14:45
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

lol, yes, very common in my family to get to 100+ - sadly my parents died young, 96 and 94 (and my mother did smoke like a chimney and liked a tipple too
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Old 14.01.2019, 14:58
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Yes.

Swiss assets were dealt with by the Swiss, the Italian assets are still being dealt with in Italy 8 years later.

Tom
Is this true?

My inheritance of British assets and NZ assets were dealt with by the Swiss authorities for tax reasons because we are tax resident here. There is a difference between the details of the inheritance -who gets what and to whom where tax is paid. As I understand it the details of the inheritance go under the land where death occurred, but the tax depends on where the inheritors are tax resident. Where the actual asset is geographically is generally not of first relevance (it may be if getting money etc out of that country is difficult and/or if the beneficiaries start fighting).

Any comments on this analysis?
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Old 14.01.2019, 15:05
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Is this true?

My inheritance of British assets and NZ assets were dealt with by the Swiss authorities for tax reasons because we are tax resident here. There is a difference between the details of the inheritance -who gets what and to whom where tax is paid. As I understand it the details of the inheritance go under the land where death occurred, but the tax depends on where the inheritors are tax resident. Where the actual asset is geographically is generally not of first relevance (it may be if getting money etc out of that country is difficult and/or if the beneficiaries start fighting).

Any comments on this analysis?
It differs what other countries are involved and what rules they have.

As for the Netherlands for example, if the deceased is Dutch, tax on the heritage has to be paid in the Netherlands regardless of who gets it and where in the world they live. (this even goes if the deceased has moved out less than 10 yrs ago out of the Netherlands). So if I die in 5 yrs, my Swedish wife has to pay tax over my belongings to the Netherlands
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Old 14.01.2019, 15:21
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Don't forget that in the UK, there's quite a generous allowance on inheritance tax.

TBH, IHT can be considered something of a voluntary tax as with the proper planning, it is possible to avoid completely.
I notice a recent change for non Doms, previously there was only a £55,000 allowance between husband & wife, not unlimited. Non Doms now get the full nil rate band but not unlimited transfers.
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  #28  
Old 14.01.2019, 16:25
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

Odile, go talk to your local notaire. We have this exact same problem right now, but in France. We have a ski chalet in Chatel and we have just bought a vineyard in the Dordogne, where we are going to retire.


Our three adult kids all live in the US. Our US wills that divide everything equally between the 3 are not going to be honored when we croak. The properties will be divided according to French law, which still adheres to the Napoleonic code.


Our two notaires, in two different villages, have told us that the way to divide everything as we wish, i.e. the surviving spouse gets everything until they croak and then it is divided equally into thirds, is to have all three children come to France at the same time, each with their own notaire, and we all sit down, hash it out and sign multiple pieces of paper.


We haven't done this yet and if we kick the bucket tomorrow, we are just relying on the good nature of all three kids to divide everything up equally and not just let the oldest son take it all.



First world problems, lol.
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  #29  
Old 14.01.2019, 16:35
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

Oh we have done everything with local notaire- and ensured surviving spouse gets 100% and our 2 daughters get 50% each on the second demise- otherwise 50% would havd gone to kids on first death, as per Swiss inheritance law.

My question is re tax- if our daughters still live in UK when we 'croak'.

Bonne chance in Dordogneshire (too many Brits there for my liking, lol )
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Old 14.01.2019, 16:37
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Oh we have done everything with local notaire- and ensured surviving spouse gets 100% and our 2 daughters get 50% each on the second demise- otherwise 50% would havd gone to kids on first death.

My question is re tax- if our daughters still live in UK when we 'croak'.
Well first of all to limit any tax burden on daughters, why not put the Swiss property in their names before either spouse dies?
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  #31  
Old 14.01.2019, 16:59
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Oh we have done everything with local notaire- and ensured surviving spouse gets 100% and our 2 daughters get 50% each on the second demise- otherwise 50% would havd gone to kids on first death, as per Swiss inheritance law.

My question is re tax- if our daughters still live in UK when we 'croak'.

Bonne chance in Dordogneshire (too many Brits there for my liking, lol )
In Switzerland you need to ensure the surviving spouse has "Wohnrecht" to ensure the kids do not evict them.
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  #32  
Old 14.01.2019, 17:03
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Well first of all to limit any tax burden on daughters, why not put the Swiss property in their names before either spouse dies?
Had a neighbour who did that then trotted off to Kenya to live. After some years Kenya did not renew his visa and on his return his kids did not allow him back in his house and he finished up living in a B&B!
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  #33  
Old 14.01.2019, 17:10
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Oh we have done everything with local notaire- and ensured surviving spouse gets 100% and our 2 daughters get 50% each on the second demise- otherwise 50% would havd gone to kids on first death, as per Swiss inheritance law.

My question is re tax- if our daughters still live in UK when we 'croak'.

Bonne chance in Dordogneshire (too many Brits there for my liking, lol )
No UK tax unless your estate is liable to UK tax, you say not so then ZERO.

Any Swiss tax will be based on Swiss law applicable at your death.
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  #34  
Old 14.01.2019, 17:20
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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In Switzerland you need to ensure the surviving spouse has "Wohnrecht" to ensure the kids do not evict them.
What we signed is called a 'Pacte Sucessoral' in Romandie. It ensures the law to pass on 50% to kids on demise is by-passed, so 100% goes to surviving spouse- which is the Swiss default system.
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  #35  
Old 14.01.2019, 17:26
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

Just go on an perpetual SKI holiday. Spending Kids Inheritance.
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  #36  
Old 14.01.2019, 18:04
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Oh we have done everything with local notaire- and ensured surviving spouse gets 100% and our 2 daughters get 50% each on the second demise- otherwise 50% would havd gone to kids on first death, as per Swiss inheritance law.
25% (50% of 50%).

Tom
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  #37  
Old 14.01.2019, 18:10
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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Is this true?
Yes, at least as regards Italy and Switzerland.

In MIL's case, there is a Swiss Certificate of Inheritance, and an Italian one (or there will be one, once the current problems are ironed out, as my wife's sister died two weeks before the Italian CI was issued, so it was back to square one)

Tom
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  #38  
Old 14.01.2019, 18:15
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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The properties will be divided according to French law, which still adheres to the Napoleonic code.
So, same as here and Italy, then.

(and probably some other places)

Tom
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  #39  
Old 15.01.2019, 11:09
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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For the moment, our adult kids, both dual nationals, still live in the UK where they were born and bred. What would happen re taxation if and when they inherit our assets in CH, financial and property, if they are still in UK at the time.
There is much among the replies to his query that is wrong and/or misleading. For one thing one can force a decision by HMRC as to its view of residence and domicile. Normally upon departure one files P85 to get a determination of PAYE: that can only be done after leaving. There are guidance notes on residence and domicile that explains the rules https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nce-basis-rdr1

Some of those rules involve counting days in a year and years in the past 20 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/deemed-domicile-rules

The criteria for retaining a UK domicile of origin even though Switzerland deems you domiciled in one of its cantons (but see the tax treaty and any tiebreaker rules) include family ties as well as property.

Losing domicile of origin is more difficult than losing a domicile of choice. Someone hinted at the rule that a spouse's estate may be subject to IHT if they don't have the same status, deemed or otherwise.

Retaining property in the UK for your use may be a bad idea. In any event perhaps the property should now be put in a "trust of land" (formerly a "trust for sale") to avoid probate. It may be possible to avoid SDLT in doing that. As with transferring property to children or executing a LPOA, there are risks of misappropriation and misuse. On the other hand "retention of interest" puts property back in your estate.

Any Sterling bank account should be in the Channel Islands.

A public forum is not the place to resolve issues that could cost an estate hundreds of thousands or millions of pounds. The more you protect your interests (by contract, trusts, titling of assets) the less scope there is for escaping taxes, including IHT. It used to be that foreign trusts and foreign companies were a way around this: that is less and less true and there are annual taxes on property held in company name, and decennial IHT on most trusts. (But not vulnerable persons' or some minors' trusts and not on "trusts of land" which aren't trusts at all but (among other things) a workaround for the Land Registry's limitations on titling property.)

But to answer the question: assuming (as I do, notwithstanding what I wrote above) that you are not domiciled or deemed domiciled in the UK, only your UK property and most UK assets are subject to IHT, and then to cantonal succession duty (best to live in Zug I think) with presumably a credit for UK tax but I don't know that as there is no relevant treaty and I haven't time to read the relevant cantonal law.

HMRC have been known to investigate (non-)taxpayers' daily location as part of an audit. Mobile phone records, interviewing neighbouring busybodies, immigration control records such as they are (didn't help Windrush people because pre-computer entry cards were thrown out). And now we have CCTV soon to include facial recognition as well as licence plate recognition.
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Old 15.01.2019, 12:28
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Re: What will happen to our assets when we kick the bucket

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What we signed is called a 'Pacte Sucessoral' in Romandie. It ensures the law to pass on 50% to kids on demise is by-passed, so 100% goes to surviving spouse- which is the Swiss default system.
I presume that means the kids had to sign the Pacte Successoral, renouncing their reserve parts of the inheritance in favour of the surviving parent?
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