Hi,

I consider using yova for quick, easy and responsible investments. Are they legit? Is their model/platform 'good value'?


https://yova.ch/en/

All input appreciated.
Thanks!

Very expensive at 1.2% fee for up to 50000 CHF invested. Did you find about them from the mindblowing amount of advertisement on FB?

Get yourself an account at Interactive Brokers and invest in VT at 0.09% fee (yes, 92.5% cheaper than Yova). You'll do much better short and long term.

Thank you very much Glinaa.
I will look into your suggestion.

You should never underestimate the cost of your investment and the effects of compound interest. At 1000 CHF a month invested over 20 years, a 1% difference in management fee will amount to a total of 50000 CHF return lost due to fees.

Indeed.

Management fees are an excellent business for these guys. They get paid no matter how much they make or lose for you. Most of them fail to beat the benchmark.

As said above, the "small" fees soon add up over the years and you'd be astonished at how much you would be giving away if you're paying 1% annual fees over an investing lifetime.

I'm a client of Yova and overall super happy. I joined them when they were still in Beta, so got a slightly better rate and for a non-professional investor with a relatively small portfolio, it makes sense.

Pros:
- Beginner-friendly - the setup is very simple and straightforward. After it's up and running, don't need to know much myself, just invest & forget. Obviously, I'm still checking how my investments are doing overall each month, but I don't need to do anything else myself, which is very nice, because I'm a total beginner and learning how to be a good investor doesn't make sense for me.
- No need of big amount of cash to start with
- Good customer service - they are very responsive and caring. Unusually friendly and professional when compared to most services in Switzerland.
- I made more money with them in the first year than I would have keeping cash in the bank.

Cons:
- It's a startup, so it's constantly improving, changing. Some features not available yet as advertised at the time of signup.
- Their reporting wasn't very good in the beginning, but it's getting better. Still would love more detailed info like on Interactive Brokers.
- It's more of the long-term game, so you got to invest cash you won't need in 3-4 years. But if you suddenly need cash after 1 year, you might find yourself in the red.


btw - yes, I am pretty sure I could have lower rates if I go to IB myself, research what to buy and do all that myself, but my time is worth more than 1% saved. If you're a pro at investing, I am sure it's not for you, but I'd rather stick to what I know.

Hi,

I am a customer. They are legit. They actually do regular open nights where you can go and meet the team, visit their offices, get to speak with staff about investments, your portfolio...

As for some of the comments below, in particular Glinaa or Enohzee.
You need to compare apples to apples.

If someone does not invest and / or has little to no knowledge, sending them to Interactive Brokers is a bad advice. This is a platform for traders - the interface is awful, you do not get proper tax information, etc.
Yes it is cheaper but this reflects the fact that it is catered for those who know what they are doing.
Also, they did not mention that your funds are not segregated, therefore, if IB defaults, then you lose everything (don't give me the argument of the $250,000 guarantee, it rests on thin air).
This is one of the reasons why the service seems cheap.

Also, the ETF which is recommended invests in a broad index.
If you looked at Yova, this is also because you wanted to invest alongside some core values. With VT, you part own gun, tobacco, junk food companies.
Me, I do not want to encourage them with my savings. With Yova, you can choose what you want to avoid and what you want to concentrate on.
For instance, I avoided tobacco but I kept nuclear as I think the Co2 free emissions gains outweighs the waste issue. However, I hate the tobacco firms - I find them evil.

Marketman had a fair appreciation of them. I agree with his points. The personal touch really makes a difference.

Their fees are being cut so as well which is an added bonus in the long run.

As for the difference in returns with IB:
If you do not invest your cash at the bank, taking a step like a Yova or other services (even your hated bank) will set you miles ahead in a few years. So we should not oppose Yova vs IB, we should first oppose what you are doing now versus what you could be doing.

And I'm perplexed.

You both seem to be aware of IB and the advantages that it brings to you as an investor, but at the same time prefer to neglect the effect of compound interest on your savings.

No sane individual investor should invest in products which cost north of 1%. Sure, this is a miniscule amount at 1000 CHF, but I don't want to retire with 1000 CHF in savings. I want at least 2'000'000 CHF and sure as hell I'm not willing to pay 20000 CHF/year to have some basic software algorithm passively manage that.

If you decide for a manager who takes >1% of your money, he'd better have a bulletproof track record. There's really only a handful of managers in the entire world who can consistently beat the market.

Sure, I'd be OK to give my 1% to Renaissance, Two Sigma or D.E. Shaw, but thats a whole other league.

And on to ESG-screened investment - there's no proof that individual investors avoiding low ESG stocks have a) better returns b) any influence on the companies. Stock market is a secondary market, you are not financing the company directly. Better to go plant a tree or something, it is guaranteed to have more enviromental impact.

As I said, you are comparing two different situations.

The OP seems to NOT be proficient in investing.
For this category of people, they will generally do nothing or put money in low-interest savings accounts.

If you can find a formula to hold their hands and direct their savings so they get a better outcome (not the best that exists), this is already a massive improvement.
Getting 5% after fees per annum is miles ahead of getting 0.05% per annum like you do at PostFinance.
I hope Glinaa that you will not disagree with the maths

Now, when you are very proficient and know what you are doing, you can target higher returns, via higher return asset classes, trading, security selection but also, your point, reduced costs.
I am not contradicting you there but we are talking about something different.

As for the ESG returns, true, academics are opposing themselves on the results.
But for many people, this is not only a return-only choice, this is also a values-based choice.
I do not want to part-own a tobacco company for instance. I find them evil in the way they entice teenagers to start smoking to lock them for life in addiction.
Some people smoke and don't care, some people don't smoke and don't care. We all have preferences.
The OP seems to want to also make a values-based decision and needs a vehicle for that.
Yova is an option, I find it good, they are legit.
That was the question of the OP we answered.

There are many and way cheaper.
https://www.justetf.com/ch-en/find-e...&sortOrder=asc

Pick any, starting at 0.07% fees. All can be easily bought even if you only own a Postfinance account.

There really is no excuse for paying 1.2% in fees and getting less for your money, doesn't matter how lazy you are.

You are still not comparing apples for apples.
The Yova service gives you the choice in themes, an ETF is an off the shelf product.
Customisation has a cost.

And these are the fees for the ETFs, you also need to add the platform/wrapper fees which you are of course avoiding to do in your calculations.

What are these costs that you are referring to? At IB custody is 0. Yes there is a minimum fee of like 10.- IIRC if you have very small assets.


In your language apples to apples is:
1. Jump from Cash account to Investment account (comes with risk, however much handholding the 1% platform does)

2. Jump from Investment account with high cost to Investment account with low cost


You are stopping at 1, Glinaa is talking about 2.

Indeed, I am talking about 1.
Glinaa talked about 2.
The OP asked more along 1.
I already agreed with Glinaa that once you have some experience, you can seek to do something yourself.

On Interactive Brokers
There is a minimum activity fee of $10 per month at IB if your account has less than $100k.
So $120 per year. Around the same in CHF.
If the OP invests 10,000.-, it is 1.2%pa , which is the Yova fee incidentally.

PostFinance has a minimum cost of 95.- per annum. It is nearly 1% for a 10,000.- investment without the product fee so once again, the whole-in fee is not far of Yova.

PS: IB does not charge for custody since there is no individual custody, your assets are pooled with the rest of the retail clients (a segregated account has a cost).

PS2: I trade on IB and Post Finance (great OTC bonds range) so I am not against them.

Excellent example. Lets stick to the 10k/year.
What are your total costs in 2-3-4-5 years once your invested amount grows 2-3-4-5 times or more?

I opened an account at Yova to see how the strategies look like. My god am I terrified! Whichever themes I chose, I ended up with portfolios full of small cap stocks and IPOs, most well into bubble territory with through-the-roof valuations. Absolutely reckless ... or genius. My bet is on the former.

Thank you g and g for your elaborate reflections and pros/cons about yova, and for providing alternatives.

As a novice with little time to spend researching and leaving the savings on a low-rate savings account, doing something, even at a 1.2%pa fee, will give a better 3-5 year return than doing nothing. Maybe the next step should be to hire a financial advisor.

Continued great summer to all.

Nooooo! Not that I mean, if you must, then pick one that has a flat rate. Otherwise, we're talking another whole basket of fees and adviser selection of certain funds that already have agreements with the adviser.

I'm a passive investor, I learned a bunch from the Bogleheads forum. Even if you want to be more aggressive, it is a good place to just start learning. You should take the time to learn at least the minimums, after all, it is your wealth and retirement being funded.

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php

You could just do what Warren Buffett is going to do for his wife when he dies and just put it all in a S&P 500 ETF. But really any broad market ETF is a good way to go.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/26/warr...dex-funds.html


Just put it in there and don't worry about it, no matter the downturns in the market. Keep your head down and keep investing. Only investing when the market is "hot" is not a good formula. Remember, your in it for the long run. Read the story of Bob below.

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/201...-market-timer/

To be fair: From 500'000 CHF Yova only takes 0.6 % per year. Yova is for people who care about how their money is used. And I tried out IB, it’s completely unusable for a casual investor in my opinion. Truewealth on the other hand, has a good user interface.

for a beginner, they can open an account with schwab and select from a number of funds with zero fees.

there's not a single situation i can imagine recommending to someone Yova over Schwab and IB - well, maybe if I really hate that person.

IB desktop app is too complicated for a casual investor. but the mobile phone app is much simpler.

Competition and consolidation has made some of the traditional big names now very compelling e.g. with Schwab you now have no trading fees and a selection of zero fee ETFs to choose from, they are also implementing features such as fractional trading due to pressure from digital disruptors such as M1 and Robinhood.

IB also now has fractional trading and introduced IB Lite with zero fees to compete with the fintech distruptors.

Now you have the backing of a big traditional firm together with the excellent customer support together with zero-fees and some of the innovations of the fintech disruptors.

It's only a matter of time before the big names go from zero fee ETFs to paying you to put money in them.

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I wonder how do you declare fractional shares on a Swiss tax declaration. Round to the nearest natural number? Should I just buy 0.499 of BRK.A and another 0.499 of Lindt&Sprungli to hide 200k from the taxman? ;-)