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  #21  
Old 08.02.2021, 14:00
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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I still don't understand why you wouldn't just invest in MSCI World or SP500 rather than this.
Sorry a stupid question from a person with very little finance knowledge, how do you do that ? Would you have use platforms like Degiro to buy MSCI and SP500?
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  #22  
Old 08.02.2021, 14:14
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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Sorry a stupid question from a person with very little finance knowledge, how do you do that ? Would you have use platforms like Degiro to buy MSCI and SP500?
Yes
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  #23  
Old 08.02.2021, 14:27
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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Sorry a stupid question from a person with very little finance knowledge, how do you do that ? Would you have use platforms like Degiro to buy MSCI and SP500?

Sure - there are numerous trackers for both MSCI world and SP500 from different providers. One example of each would be:

MSCI world: type "HMWO" (comes up with a pound or dollar version in Degiro - either is fine) (from HSBC)

SP500: type "VUSA". (from Vanguard) - again multiple currencies will be available (and possibly also different stock exchanges) and it really doesn't matter which one you pick.

There may be trackers available that are very marginally cheaper (I'm not an index investor so don't really follow who provides the best etfs), but these are perfectly ok.

Please note that it doesn't matter which currency your investments are held. If the currency depreciates your % performance will correspondingly increase. Your currency exposure depends on what you are actually invested in not the currency you hold that investment in (for example, if you bought the SP500 you would naturally have a large dollar exposure even if you held the investments in GBP, EUR or CHF).

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 08.02.2021 at 14:47.
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  #24  
Old 09.02.2021, 02:10
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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There may be trackers available that are very marginally cheaper (I'm not an index investor so don't really follow who provides the best etfs), but these are perfectly ok.
This.
Of course it makes a difference over a couple decades whether a fund costs 0.07% or 0.05%, but there are far more important points to consider.

@akk
Swiss bank fees are usurious, it's much more important to avoid that pitfall than avoind another 0.001% in annual fees. PostFinance used to be go-to place, but they changed their contracts in preparation to raising their fees. Fees and other charges are waived for a year or two yet, but someone opening their first account should avoid that.

degiro looks very competitive, I particularly like that they don't charge for inactivity, nor do they have any base custody fee. And a newbie will probably simply love the fact that phone orders cost 11 CHF surcharge only. Personally, I'd use that extensively until I'm confident with placing orders online myself, and if possible have them take my hand and guide me through filling the order form. That way the surcharges will pay for themselves many times over in avoided errors.

They seem to offer delayed quotes only for Switzerland and NYSE, realtime quotes for other markets will cost a monthly fee (remember to unsubscribe in time). But that shouldn't be a problem for someone with a buy-to-hold approach buying big-volume stocks and ETFs/funds only, as long as very turbulent market phases are avoided or limit orders used.
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  #25  
Old 09.02.2021, 11:44
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

Thanks a lot Hick and Urs, that's already good knowledge gained today.
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  #26  
Old 09.02.2021, 11:56
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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They seem to offer delayed quotes only for Switzerland and NYSE, realtime quotes for other markets will cost a monthly fee (remember to unsubscribe in time). But that shouldn't be a problem for someone with a buy-to-hold approach buying big-volume stocks and ETFs/funds only, as long as very turbulent market phases are avoided or limit orders used.
Terry Smith who fund over £25 billion fo funds does not pay for real time quotes, he can always put in an order on Charles Schwab & see the quoted price. But then his fund is a buy & hold approach even through additions to the fund are £5 million a day.
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  #27  
Old 09.02.2021, 12:46
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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This.
Of course it makes a difference over a couple decades whether a fund costs 0.07% or 0.05%, but there are far more important points to consider.

@akk
Swiss bank fees are usurious, it's much more important to avoid that pitfall than avoind another 0.001% in annual fees. PostFinance used to be go-to place, but they changed their contracts in preparation to raising their fees. Fees and other charges are waived for a year or two yet, but someone opening their first account should avoid that.

degiro looks very competitive, I particularly like that they don't charge for inactivity, nor do they have any base custody fee. And a newbie will probably simply love the fact that phone orders cost 11 CHF surcharge only. Personally, I'd use that extensively until I'm confident with placing orders online myself, and if possible have them take my hand and guide me through filling the order form. That way the surcharges will pay for themselves many times over in avoided errors.

They seem to offer delayed quotes only for Switzerland and NYSE, realtime quotes for other markets will cost a monthly fee (remember to unsubscribe in time). But that shouldn't be a problem for someone with a buy-to-hold approach buying big-volume stocks and ETFs/funds only, as long as very turbulent market phases are avoided or limit orders used.
I think Degiro is significantly more user friendly for beginners than Interactive Brokers - both in terms of a less intimidating interface, and in terms of its charging structure. If you have under 100k in the account, Degiro is a no brainer. Even above 100k its very competitive with IB.

But either are ultimately a great choice. As Urs says, your local Swiss bank is the wrong choice.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 09.02.2021 at 12:58.
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  #28  
Old 09.02.2021, 16:57
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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I think Degiro is significantly more user friendly for beginners than Interactive Brokers - both in terms of a less intimidating interface, and in terms of its charging structure. If you have under 100k in the account, Degiro is a no brainer. Even above 100k its very competitive with IB.

But either are ultimately a great choice. As Urs says, your local Swiss bank is the wrong choice.
Yes, IB is probably overwhelming for a beginner, that's why I didn't mention them even though I'm their customer. Degiro's interface seems self-explanatory based on the 4-minute YT tutorial I consulted, and much more attuned to what a beginner will need (and be able to manage).

And if Degiro turns out to be not good enough, they don't imprison their customers by making the switch artificially expensive: outgoing security transfers cost €10 or so per position. Which alone is a good thing IMO because it forces them to provide value elsehow to make their customers stay.
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  #29  
Old 09.02.2021, 21:14
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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Yes, IB is probably overwhelming for a beginner, that's why I didn't mention them even though I'm their customer. Degiro's interface seems self-explanatory based on the 4-minute YT tutorial I consulted, and much more attuned to what a beginner will need (and be able to manage).

And if Degiro turns out to be not good enough, they don't imprison their customers by making the switch artificially expensive: outgoing security transfers cost €10 or so per position. Which alone is a good thing IMO because it forces them to provide value elsehow to make their customers stay.
How is switching out of IB? Easy? Expensive?
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  #30  
Old 09.02.2021, 22:42
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

Hi there,

I invested some pocket money in Yova in August (right moment, markets were picking up) and the return I had is this one:



I am just waiting for the big collapse.

Commissions are high (1.2% of the invested amount, but there are always promotions, see bottom of this message), they claim the companies they invest into respect *some* rights and the environment, you have some freedom in the ethical choice of stocks (do you prefer human rights, green economy, worker welfare etcetc). Maybe they really do the check on the companies, so it would justify such high commissions.

The most aggressive strategy you can have is 80% stocks, 20% bonds (mixture of Japan, Germany, USA ... just to be sure to negate all ethics choices you picked above ).

If you want to join, you can get 6 months no-commissions with this code
bb50b
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  #31  
Old 09.02.2021, 23:09
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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Terry Smith who fund over £25 billion fo funds does not pay for real time quotes, he can always put in an order on Charles Schwab & see the quoted price. But then his fund is a buy & hold approach even through additions to the fund are £5 million a day.

That's ridiculous. Bloomberg terminal would include those and I'm sure he pays for one, either personally or for his analysts Or are you also saying he's soooo cheap that makes investment decisions based on fundamentals sourced for free from google search?
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  #32  
Old 09.02.2021, 23:11
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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MSCI World grew 7% for last 12 months, 13% for last 3 so about on par with Selma returns BUT more importantly (to me) is I do not want to invest in oil, tobacco, arms etc so only invest in ESG.

ESG is a stupid label invented to sell shit to idiots^W uninformed masses like you (case in point: selma wouldn't have gotten your business without it, would it? heh). In reality it doesn't mean what you think it means. Look at actual holdings, not some silly feel-good labels. Actually, look at what those supposedly good companies do as well. Most big co's are driven only by money. You can find enough dirt even on the best of the best, e.g. Nestle and their bottled water business in the third world
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  #33  
Old 09.02.2021, 23:57
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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I used Swissquote e-Private Banking for a number of years. It underperformed in my opinion, but I felt it was at least fairly safe.

This year I shut it all down as I felt I could do better buying and selling shares myself - which proved to be the case...
This, absolutely.

It is interesting to note that virtually every managed fund you can find supposedly outperforms the market average.

So either fund managers are making erroneous claims, or the "average" is calculated in some super dodgy manner that makes everybody look good.
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  #34  
Old 09.02.2021, 23:58
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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the best of the best, e.g. Nestle
Are you implying Nestle is the best of the best?
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  #35  
Old 10.02.2021, 01:52
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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Are you implying Nestle is the best of the best?
I've heard that it's possible to get a 100% mortgage in Switzerland by pledging 30% of the deposit value in Swiss stocks.

If that turns out to be feasible I might go 100% nestle.
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  #36  
Old 10.02.2021, 02:00
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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Hi there,

I invested some pocket money in Yova in August (right moment, markets were picking up) and the return I had is this one:



I am just waiting for the big collapse.

Commissions are high (1.2% of the invested amount, but there are always promotions, see bottom of this message), they claim the companies they invest into respect *some* rights and the environment, you have some freedom in the ethical choice of stocks (do you prefer human rights, green economy, worker welfare etcetc). Maybe they really do the check on the companies, so it would justify such high commissions.

The most aggressive strategy you can have is 80% stocks, 20% bonds (mixture of Japan, Germany, USA ... just to be sure to negate all ethics choices you picked above ).

If you want to join, you can get 6 months no-commissions with this code
bb50b
Better than I'd have expected but both more expensive and lower return than my "ESG" fund Baillie Gifford Positive Change. Pretty shocking they force you to hold bonds. What is it with Switzerland and trying to force low risk investments on people.

Incidentally the "Positive change" Team will take over Keystone Investment Trust tomorrow. I've bought a bit while it was still quite heavily discounted in anticipation.
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  #37  
Old 10.02.2021, 18:55
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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That's ridiculous. Bloomberg terminal would include those and I'm sure he pays for one, either personally or for his analysts Or are you also saying he's soooo cheap that makes investment decisions based on fundamentals sourced for free from google search?
Yahoo finance also provides real time quotes
On a more serious note, if your strategy is to buy and hold then real time quotes are probably not very important.
Besides, if someone wishes tomake a trade the fund cannot time the market.
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  #38  
Old 10.02.2021, 18:57
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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Better than I'd have expected but both more expensive and lower return than my "ESG" fund Baillie Gifford Positive Change. Pretty shocking they force you to hold bonds. What is it with Switzerland and trying to force low risk investments on people.

Incidentally the "Positive change" Team will take over Keystone Investment Trust tomorrow. I've bought a bit while it was still quite heavily discounted in anticipation.
What's the deal with investment trusts? Aren't ETFs or mutual funds good enough for you?
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  #39  
Old 10.02.2021, 19:13
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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What's the deal with investment trusts? Aren't ETFs or mutual funds good enough for you?
I prefer trusts in general to unit funds and unit funds to etfs.

Theres a few reasons why trusts tend to outperform their equivalent unit trust.
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  #40  
Old 10.02.2021, 19:25
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Re: Swiss robo advisors

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That's ridiculous. Bloomberg terminal would include those and I'm sure he pays for one, either personally or for his analysts Or are you also saying he's soooo cheap that makes investment decisions based on fundamentals sourced for free from google search?
He is not trading, he is investing, he can place an order & wait for the market, he knows how much he wants to pay.
He reads the accounts to make his shortlist, he then has a max price he will pay.

You could say he is cheap, he has over half a billion pounds in the fund & has never owned a new car. The second one is the reason for the first, you should live below your means.
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I prefer trusts in general to unit funds and unit funds to etfs.

Theres a few reasons why trusts tend to outperform their equivalent unit trust.
Trust have had very long periods being out of favour, I remember buying RIT capital at an 18% discount, it had very good performance at the time. In volatile times being able to sell at NAV is attractive, even Smithson had a huge discount for a week last March. Most trusts are hugely illiquid.
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