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  #41  
Old 23.01.2020, 15:03
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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What happened before the authorities handled you the UK residence permit?

To begin with, someone does not "receive a resident permit from the UK due to spouse being British and currently living in London". The permit does not appears one day in the mailbox. Individuals need to apply for permits. Then, there should have been an application or a question such as "where you come from"?

  1. If you answered Switzerland, the people in the UK would have replied "please deregister there, then come back with proof of it". But this did not happen since you still hold the CH permit.
  2. If you answered "non-EU country", the people in the UK failed in their duty to check if you already resided in any Schengen zone country.
Intentionally or not, you were caught with 2 residence permits. Lawyer up and good luck. If the CH prosecutors ask the UK how and why you have an UK permit, point #2 above may arise and the car story may be the smallest of your worries. Even if the UK authorities made a mistake, it's easier to throw you under the bus than acknowledge the mistake.
The UK authorities don’t really care what he does outside the UK, nor do they need to. From the two people I know in the UK who got permits for their non-EU partners: they had to apply for it, show their marriage was genuine, that they earned sufficient income to support them etc...

The danger I see is the UK authorities becoming aware that not only has he not taken up residence in the UK, but that he appeared in n Austrian court claiming not to be resident and to top it all he has now a criminal conviction.
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  #42  
Old 23.01.2020, 15:34
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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The danger I see is the UK authorities becoming aware that not only has he not taken up residence in the UK, but that he appeared in n Austrian court claiming not to be resident and to top it all he has now a criminal conviction.
He does not have to flat out deny being an EU resident. It is enough that he is not a habitual resident to not be subject to the customs regulations. (Exact Article and link given in one of the above post).
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  #43  
Old 23.01.2020, 15:41
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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The fine will be massive.... there was a similar case mentioned on here recently I think and it was tens of thousands of euros.

Edit : https://www.thelocal.ch/20140606/ger...border-mistake
What the OP seems to have is a "biometric residence permit" fully discussed at https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits It seems to certify a right of residence as of the time issued.

As I wrote earlier, the Austrian authorities must have attributed significance to the card that the Home Office does not.
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  #44  
Old 23.01.2020, 16:16
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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As I wrote earlier, the Austrian authorities must have attributed significance to the card that the Home Office does not.
As also written earlier, a common format residence permit card issued by an EU country is prima facie evidence that the holder can not claim non-resident tourist exemption. What else could have the border personnel done than forward the case to the prosecutor/state's attorney for further investigation?

As far as I see the case is currently in the "Ermittlungsverfahren" (investigation procedure) at and no formal "Anklage" (charges) have been made.
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  #45  
Old 23.01.2020, 18:12
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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International law. You can be resident in multiple countries and tax resident in multiple countries, but habitually resident in only one country at a time and that is almost always the country of domicile as well. That is why A215 refers to habitual residents.
I presume you refer to the hague convention here or maybe even the rome convention used for refugees...

Do you have a link to a case where someone was deemed to have only one habitual residence upon claiming dual (or multiple) habitual residences?

The EU seems to have some pretty clear ideas on habitual residence, but the rest of the world much less so.

Let me give you a real-world example:

The person in question travels between Senegal, UK, USA and Italy. They have a house in all the above countries. They rarely spend more than a week continuously in any one country. His partner spends the three summer months in the USA, the Christmas period in the UK and the rest moving around between Italy and Senegal. The kids are in a boarding school (in the UK).

He is a tax resident in multiple countries, holds 2.5 nationalities (0.5 being an Indian OCI, where he was born - but hasn't been back in 40+ years). When he used to work, he had a company registered in India, one in Dubai and one in Senegal - all with the same name. He is now retired, but continues to travel.

Any guesses as to where his habitual domicile is?
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  #46  
Old 23.01.2020, 18:51
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

You mean habitual residence. One can only have one domicile for one purpose under one country’s laws: the premise of one domicile for all purposes is faulty (Prof. Willis L. M. Reese). Still, countries, especially for tax purposes, may disagree on residence too which is why tax treaties provide for Competent Authority resolution.
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  #47  
Old 24.01.2020, 18:32
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

This seems to be the definitive word:

"Beware new EU law if you are hiring a car in Switzerland this summer
"A Swiss-registered hire car cannot be driven across the border to France, Germany, Italy or Austria by an EU citizen"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...re-switzerland

It isn't obvious that the Regulation applies to the OP. It would take close reading of the Regulation linked in that article to see how it applies to a person with immigration authority who is not in fact a EU resident or citizen.
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Old 24.01.2020, 18:39
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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This seems to be the definitive word:

"Beware new EU law if you are hiring a car in Switzerland this summer
"A Swiss-registered hire car cannot be driven across the border to France, Germany, Italy or Austria by an EU citizen"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...re-switzerland

It isn't obvious that the Regulation applies to the OP. It would take close reading of the Regulation linked in that article to see how it applies to a person with immigration authority who is not in fact a EU resident or citizen.
Many countries already had such rule more than half a century ago, dunno why the EU thought they should get an opinion on this also. And also there is no such thing as "when being an EU citizen I may drive an EU registered car." Try driving a German registered car in the Netherlands when being a Dutch registered citizen.

However none of that is any point of discussion.

Point of discussion is wether or not OP can be seen as EU citizen or not, and if so would him having CH as habitual residence allow him to drive a Swiss car in the EU or not.
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  #49  
Old 24.01.2020, 18:46
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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Many countries already had such rule more than half a century ago, dunno why the EU thought they should get an opinion on this also. And also there is no such thing as "when being an EU citizen I may drive an EU registered car." Try driving a German registered car in the Netherlands when being a Dutch registered citizen.

However none of that is any point of discussion.

Point of discussion is wether or not OP can be seen as EU citizen or not, and if so would him having CH as habitual residence allow him to drive a Swiss car in the EU or not.
Yes but one starts with the law. As a lawyer I would say the OP is neither an EU citizen nor permanent resident, and evidently not a EU driver licence holder either.

I engaged in a similar law in the USA relating to driving out-of-state cars and with out-of-state licences. I am assuming, as a matter of logic and reason, that road hauliers are exempt (US state laws deal specifically with "chauffeur licenses" for taxis and commercial vehicles): unlike the USA I don't think EU/EEA countries demand multiple licence plates and/or tax stickers for every state through which a lorry passes. (The article I linked to addresses hire cars.) I know (because I have dealt with vehicles of deceased persons and with SOFA vehicles and diplomatic vehicles that these are all traps for the unwary. If I can't provide a definitive answer nobody can and it is likely that a Customs officer at a border will make mistakes. Hence the value of a Customs Broker who can resolve issues with a bond, a temporary licence plate, and more. But probably not a valid driver licence if the one you hold is invalid in the country.

As it happens for a long time I drove a UK-licenced car (with USA insurance valid in Europe, green card and all) in Switzerland and the EU with a Florida driver licence. But as it happened I had Swiss diplomatic immunity at the time for being assigned to a UN-connected agency. I write that only to say that I am familiar with what one can get away with as well as what is legitimate. (I could have gotten Swiss diplomatic plates but it was too much trouble...) The SOL has run on this confession.

Anyway it isn't clear why you choose to write your confusing critique unless it's to troll. I wrote the above irrelevance just to show I do know something. And BTW I qualified as a nationality lawyer although I'm long retired now.
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  #50  
Old 24.01.2020, 18:47
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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This seems to be the definitive word:

"Beware new EU law if you are hiring a car in Switzerland this summer
"A Swiss-registered hire car cannot be driven across the border to France, Germany, Italy or Austria by an EU citizen"
.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CITIZENSHIP. And ALSO NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DRIVING LICENSE
Damn bloody journalist.

And it is also not "new". Even Articles 558 to 561 of the old Commission Regulation (EEC) No 2454/93 did not allow it
It properly goes back to the invention of borders, duty and such.

It is simple: A resident can not simply bring stuff over the border w/o declaring it and pay the applicable tax and duty. There might be certain specific exemptions but that is the exception of the norm.
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  #51  
Old 24.01.2020, 18:50
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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Yes but one starts with the law. As a lawyer I would say the OP is neither an EU citizen nor permanent resident, and evidently not a EU driver licence holder either.

As it happens for a long time I drove a UK-licenced car (with USA insurance valid in Europe, green card and all) in Switzerland and the EU with a Florida driver licence. But as it happened I had Swiss diplomatic immunity at the time for being assigned to a UN-connected agency. I write that only to say that I am familiar with what one can get away with as well as what is legitimate. (I could have gotten Swiss diplomatic plates but it was too much trouble...)
Diplomatic plates are a completely different story.......

Can you then explain how you cannot be a permanent resident whilst having a residency permit? It is not like OP has a 120 days permit as they can be issued in CH.

What law states that OP is not a permanent resident?
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  #52  
Old 24.01.2020, 18:57
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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What law states that OP is not a permanent resident?
You can be a permanent resident but not a habitual resident.

Just to note, each effing law might have its own definition what resident or habitual resident means. Even in Switzerland the definition of resident can have a different meaning depending on topic you deal with: Tax, registration, social security, school, health insurance etc. etc.
http://www.vtg.ch/public/upload/asse...%20Mettier.pdf
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Old 24.01.2020, 19:27
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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You can be a permanent resident but not a habitual resident.

Just to note, each effing law might have its own definition what resident or habitual resident means. Even in Switzerland the definition of resident can have a different meaning depending on topic you deal with: Tax, registration, social security, school, health insurance etc. etc.
http://www.vtg.ch/public/upload/asse...%20Mettier.pdf
That is more or less true: there is "ordinary resident", "legal resident", "permanent resident" (usually a matter of immigration law), and "habitual resident" (a matter of fact). But there is also "deemed resident" usually described as "deemed domicile" since in Anglo-American law "domicile" has a special meaning, different between UK and US.

One can easily be a tax resident of more than one country, and tax treaties don't often resolve all the anomalies.

Possession of a fraudulent, incorrect or expired (because no long or maybe even never eligible) document does not give rise to rights or obligations unless your name is William Joyce: he was hanged for having in his possession an expired, fraudulently-obtained British passport. Indeed, possessing a wrongfully obtained ID can be penalised. An expired British one, not so much: the Home Office says so on its Web site in relation to discontinued alien identity cards (this doesn't refer to current biometric cards which I think is in question here).

For a Swiss citizen to register at the Foreigners Office of a place where s/he has available accommodation implies residence under Swiss law with obligation to have sickness insurance and pay income & wealth tax. Lots of Swiss working abroad retain their Swiss residence for various reasons which I won't elaborate here. More than one Swiss I have met spends their years cruising the world on ships.

BTW on insurance: a misstatement of facts to the non-life insurer can mean they keep the premium but don't have to pay claims.
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Old 24.01.2020, 20:03
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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For a Swiss citizen to register at the Foreigners Office of a place where s/he has available accommodation implies residence under Swiss law with obligation to have sickness insurance and pay income & wealth tax. Lots of Swiss working abroad retain their Swiss residence for various reasons which I won't elaborate here. More than one Swiss I have met spends their years cruising the world on ships..
What? A Swiss citizen registering at a foreigners office ??? That does not make any sense at all.
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Old 03.02.2020, 14:07
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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What? A Swiss citizen registering at a foreigners office ??? That does not make any sense at all.
It's the name of the civil registration office; handles foreigners and Swiss alike. Maybe in other communes it has a different name but not in mine.
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Old 03.02.2020, 14:27
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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It's the name of the civil registration office; handles foreigners and Swiss alike. Maybe in other communes it has a different name but not in mine.
The name is "contrôle des habitants", and it acts in Port-Valais also as the "bureau des étrangers". The first on is regulated in Canton VS Loi sur le contrôle de l'habitant, the latter in the Ordonnance de la loi d'application de la loi fédérale sur les étrangers. A Swiss has only to deal with the former.
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Old 03.02.2020, 14:35
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

I am driving back to the UK in October. I'm am a UK/CH citizen resident solely in CH. Normally I enter the UK on my UK passport (as I think this is how you are supposed to do it ) .... however, now having seen this thread, I'm wondering if when driving my Swiss car I should solely use my Swiss passport (even entering the UK) in order to prevent such problems.
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Old 03.02.2020, 14:50
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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I am driving back to the UK in October. I'm am a UK/CH citizen resident solely in CH. Normally I enter the UK on my UK passport (as I think this is how you are supposed to do it ) .... however, now having seen this thread, I'm wondering if when driving my Swiss car I should solely use my Swiss passport (even entering the UK) in order to prevent such problems.
It does not matter how many and which citizenships you have.

If you are a CH resident than you can drive your Swiss car to and in the UK.

Residency is the keyword here.
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Old 03.02.2020, 15:24
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

I you truly had read this thread, you would have a come across this statement:

IT IS NOT ABOUT CITIZENSHIP. IT IS ABOUT RESIDENCY.

So here it is once again:

IT IS NOT ABOUT CITIZENSHIP. IT IS ABOUT RESIDENCY.

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Old 03.02.2020, 15:31
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Re: Driving a Swiss Registered Car in the EU by a Dual CH and EU Residence Permits Ho

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I you truly had read this thread, you would have a come across this statement:

IT IS NOT ABOUT CITIZENSHIP. IT IS ABOUT RESIDENCY.

So here it is once again:

IT IS NOT ABOUT CITIZENSHIP. IT IS ABOUT RESIDENCY.

True but remember it is the UK the decides who is considered resident in the UK not the Swiss. People who have been using a UK address of convenience, failed to up give up their UK driving licence etc... may have issues once border checks begin.
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