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Old 21.04.2020, 00:30
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So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

I guess storage is now full

Apparently oil fell to below -$40 per barrel at one point. Yes, we now also have negative oil prices
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Old 21.04.2020, 00:44
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

Storage is not yet full, but the general believe is that storage will be full at the time the negative priced oil that got sold today will be delivered which is in May.

Now they'll be selling the packages for June and those prices are still above 0 but if trust that consumption will be going up by then falls as it did for May those also fall to below zero giving a trust issue in the economy pulling general stock market further down.

There is still overproduction and soon we'll see production plants being shut down because indeed there is nowhere anymore to store it. Unfortunately for us by the time demand is booming again there be too little production and prices at the pump might rocket up at a level where we decide to drive an extra round today to avoid filling up tomorrow.

(In the past we've had negative gas prices at some places btw)
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Old 21.04.2020, 08:47
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

Sub-zero oil prices threaten big losses for ETF investors

https://www.ft.com/content/2669d6de-...8-64506dc60eed

That negative price is something technical due to contract expiry and lack of storage for the delivery of oil in May.

That said it will cause pain to oil ETF investors and that's why any serious investor always avoids commodity ETFs and ETFs in general.
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Old 21.04.2020, 10:20
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

Fun times. I am part owner of an MLP invested in operating small oil rigs in the US. Right now I'm writing checks to keep the investment going... It's the name of the game sometimes.

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That said it will cause pain to oil ETF investors and that's why any serious investor always avoids commodity ETFs and ETFs in general.
What? Serious investors do all kinds of things including using ETFs. They're a fantastic way to make broad-based investments in market segments or indices. It is not a requirement to trade individual stocks and bonds to be considered serious.
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Old 21.04.2020, 10:25
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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Fun times. I am part owner of an MLP invested in operating small oil rigs in the US. Right now I'm writing checks to keep the investment going... It's the name of the game sometimes.



What? Serious investors do all kinds of things including using ETFs. They're a fantastic way to make broad-based investments in market segments or indices. It is not a requirement to trade individual stocks and bonds to be considered serious.
Commodity ETFs will suffer due to rollover of contracts. Do you know what that is?

ETFs are good to give you access to remote markets but for the big local markets like US & Europe you have better control doing the investments directly IMO.
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Old 21.04.2020, 11:17
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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That said it will cause pain to oil ETF investors and that's why any serious investor always avoids commodity ETFs and ETFs in general.
Warren Buffet, John Bogle, and many other wildly successful investors would disagree with your assessment for the normal investor (those without special tools, quicker access to trades than the lay person, etc.). But by serious investor, maybe you mean those that have the unfair advantages.

Anyways, many ways to invest, your style does not necessarily mean you are more "serious" than those with different styles.
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Old 21.04.2020, 11:58
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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Warren Buffet, John Bogle, and many other wildly successful investors would disagree with your assessment for the normal investor (those without special tools, quicker access to trades than the lay person, etc.). But by serious investor, maybe you mean those that have the unfair advantages.

Anyways, many ways to invest, your style does not necessarily mean you are more "serious" than those with different styles.
Warren Buffet is not a fan of financial instruments, many EFT's are highly dangerous so I disagree. He would probably approve of an S&P 500 tracker, but he has never recommended EFT's in general.
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Old 21.04.2020, 12:15
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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warren buffet is not a fan of financial instruments, many eft's are highly dangerous so i disagree. He would probably approve of an s&p 500 tracker, but he has never recommended eft's in general.
+1
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Old 21.04.2020, 12:32
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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+1
Terry Smith warned about the dangers of EFT's in 2011

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk...K/article.html
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Old 21.04.2020, 12:53
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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Terry Smith warned about the dangers of EFT's in 2011

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk...K/article.html
I could pull up articles supporting ETFs. And we could go on and never come to an agreement. (By the way, I am only in support of broad market ETFs, not sector specific ones.) Obviously investing is very dynamic with a million different methods to get to the end game.

The only point I am trying to make is that being a broad market ETF investor, as I am, does not mean I am not serious about investing. It is a bit of a belittling remark to state ETF investors are not serious (I know you didn't make that comment). You may think there are better ways, which is highly dependent on amount of time wanting to spend trading and researching, amount of risk willing to undertake, time to retirement, etc. , but that is a different discussion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/buff...investing.html

Last edited by bonaire; 21.04.2020 at 12:55. Reason: added hyperlink
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Old 21.04.2020, 13:00
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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I could pull up articles supporting ETFs. And we could go on and never come to an agreement. (By the way, I am only in support of broad market ETFs, not sector specific ones.) Obviously investing is very dynamic with a million different methods to get to the end game.

The only point I am trying to make is that being a broad market ETF investor, as I am, does not mean I am not serious about investing. It is a bit of a belittling remark to state ETF investors are not serious (I know you didn't make that comment). You may think there are better ways, which is highly dependent on amount of time wanting to spend trading and researching, amount of risk willing to undertake, time to retirement, etc. , but that is a different discussion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/buff...investing.html
You claimed Buffet recommended or would use EFT's, this not substantiated in your link, as there is no mention of EFT's.
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Old 21.04.2020, 13:08
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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You claimed Buffet recommended or would use EFT's, this not substantiated in your link, as there is no mention of EFT's.
I am mostly going on what he wants to do with his estate to support his wife when he dies. Or am I misunderstanding your comment? Anyways, I am really just saying a person can be a serious investor and invest in ETFs. That's fair, right?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/26/warr...dex-funds.html

After rereading your comment, is the issue the term index fund? I know that can mean mutual fund or ETF, but when he mentions low-cost index fund and the work "passive" is also included, I generally think ETF. Maybe that is what I am misreading?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/03/why-...nvestment.html
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Old 21.04.2020, 13:22
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

Just wondering why petrol still costs >1.40 chf in Switzerland with these oil prices...
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Old 21.04.2020, 13:27
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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I am mostly going on what he wants to do with his estate to support his wife when he dies. Or am I misunderstanding your comment? Anyways, I am really just saying a person can be a serious investor and invest in ETFs. That's fair, right?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/26/warr...dex-funds.html

After rereading your comment, is the issue the term index fund? I know that can mean mutual fund or ETF, but when he mentions low-cost index fund and the work "passive" is also included, I generally think ETF. Maybe that is what I am misreading?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/03/why-...nvestment.html
Buffet has never mentioned EFT's, you are translating low cost index fund as EFT, it's your words & not his. Your link says Buffet chose 'Vanguard 500 Index Fund Admiral Shares' a mutual fund
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Old 21.04.2020, 13:34
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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Just wondering why petrol still costs >1.40 chf in Switzerland with these oil prices...
Old stock & taxes, nobody is buying fuel so those stocks last a long time, hence the fall in price for immediate delivery.
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Old 21.04.2020, 13:48
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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I guess storage is now full

Apparently oil fell to below -$40 per barrel at one point. Yes, we now also have negative oil prices
yes. A liitle cheaper than one bier!
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Old 21.04.2020, 14:14
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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I could pull up articles supporting ETFs. And we could go on and never come to an agreement. (By the way, I am only in support of broad market ETFs, not sector specific ones.) Obviously investing is very dynamic with a million different methods to get to the end game.

The only point I am trying to make is that being a broad market ETF investor, as I am, does not mean I am not serious about investing. It is a bit of a belittling remark to state ETF investors are not serious (I know you didn't make that comment). You may think there are better ways, which is highly dependent on amount of time wanting to spend trading and researching, amount of risk willing to undertake, time to retirement, etc. , but that is a different discussion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/buff...investing.html
I used the serious word to point out that you are just buying a financial product that could be called a derivative as well (pretty much to me it is the same as a linear derivative). If I have access to a market I don't see why you want to buy a 3rd party financial product that invests in stocks (run by money managers) rather than buying the stocks directly or working with a stock advisor.

If I want to buy eg Asian stocks that I don't have access to the markets in certain countries ETF could be a good option.
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Old 21.04.2020, 14:17
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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Warren Buffet is not a fan of financial instruments, many EFT's are highly dangerous so I disagree. He would probably approve of an S&P 500 tracker, but he has never recommended EFT's in general.
Utter bullshit. It's the exact opposite.

SP500 is his measure, both for BRK's performance and for others. To paraphrase Buffett "If BRK can't beat the S&P, why would you invest in us?"

His offer some 15 years ago for a $500k bet against hedge funds also used the S&P as the standard they would have to beat. Obviously low-cost ETFs like VOO are the best (most cost-effective and easiest) way to buy the S&P for retail investors.

Oh, btw, BRK bought VOO and SPY earlier this year.
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Old 21.04.2020, 14:26
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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Utter bullshit. It's the exact opposite.

SP500 is his measure, both for BRK's performance and for others. To paraphrase Buffett "If BRK can't beat the S&P, why would you invest in us?"

His offer some 15 years ago for a $500k bet against hedge funds also used the S&P as the standard they would have to beat. Obviously low-cost ETFs like VOO are the best (most cost-effective and easiest) way to buy the S&P for retail investors.

Oh, btw, BRK bought VOO and SPY earlier this year.
BRK are running reinsurance (I think) and insurance businesses (GEICO). They need to buy the index to match long term liabilities. That's how insurance companies work. Don't mix up things.
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Old 21.04.2020, 14:33
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Re: So. Did anyone check the price of oil today?

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Utter bullshit. It's the exact opposite.

SP500 is his measure, both for BRK's performance and for others. To paraphrase Buffett "If BRK can't beat the S&P, why would you invest in us?"

His offer some 15 years ago for a $500k bet against hedge funds also used the S&P as the standard they would have to beat. Obviously low-cost ETFs like VOO are the best (most cost-effective and easiest) way to buy the S&P for retail investors.

Oh, btw, BRK bought VOO and SPY earlier this year.
There is no evidence that Buffet was behind the paltry $25 million invested in the S&P 500 EFT trackers you mention, he generally goes for bigger punts. That's even tiny change for Ted & Todd's 14 Billion fund's. Something for an insurance subsidiary would be my guess.

“In our view, however, derivatives are financial weapons of mass destruction, carrying dangers that, while now latent, are potentially lethal,” wrote Buffett in Berkshire Hathaway's (BRK-A, BRK-B) 2002 annual letter.
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