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  #21  
Old 27.04.2020, 21:44
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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I rent a room for 1k, had one for 700 CHF but had to swap due to apartment renovation. As you can imagine with negative entries in betreibungsaufzug it is hard to look for cheaper options, if any.
So if you count:

Overall existenz minimum is calculated for me at 4.9k, including family allowance of 2k
So after my room 1k, health insurance 400, family 2k.
I can hardly save more on food since I spend maybe 200 on myself already as is, if that. If you subtract 1k rent from my family allowance they are left with 1k, for 5 people for a month, and in this there is cost of health insurance and medication.
Here, I'm trying to follow your calculation.

4'900 Existenzminimum
1'000 less your rent
400 less your medical insurance premium
3'500 remaining.

Of that 3'500
1'000 your family's rent
2'500 remaining.

From that 2'500, you have to cover your own transport and food (and everything else), and the rest is available to be sent to your family for their transport and food (and everything else).

Have I understood you correctly, in this?

As far as I know, the personal allowance for a single person, for transport, food and everything else, (not rent, not medical insurance premiums) is considered to be about 900 or 1'000 per person. It is not easy to get by on that. I think their reasoning, though, would be that the 2'500 would be divided up as follows:

2'500 remaining
1'000 your personal allowance
1'500 remaining, to be sent to your family.

I'm double-checking because it sounds like you're saying that there is only 1'000 to send to the family (besides their rent), but the Betreibungsamt will regard it as 1'500. Probably also not easy, but more so in Italy than here.

Or have I misunderstood something?
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  #22  
Old 27.04.2020, 21:53
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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I will try this, altough I tried to reach the bank on my own and they would not budge, telling me to wait until collection runs its course. Would Beobachter be able to help with that at all?



Thats the thing, I negotiated a salary increase assuming that it covers the expected increase in expense and more, so that both I end the creditor get more money and everyone is happy, but I was wrong. Not even that: I got the rise since january and every month since then I was missing the employee reponsible for me and others were quite "accepting" that I bring this and that but they were understandably leaving the final decision to the person in charge of my case. And now I learned that starting January I was actually wrong
In short:

You personally have nothing left to discuss with the bank anymore, you made a deal with them and did not stick to it, that is where they are like "screw it, we want it all and we want it asap and we're done talking with you" A specialised firm might know paths to walk at the bank/betriebung that simply are unavailable to you as a private person who already screwed up (no offence)

As for talking to your employer about a different distribution of your salary, this is of no use and a waste of time since the employer has been ordered to give you X amount every month and the rest goes to the debt, and no matter how much you talk with your employer this will not change amount X no matter how much your employer would like it, he simply has no say in this.
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Old 27.04.2020, 21:57
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Here, I'm trying to follow your calculation.
Your calculation is correct, but since Italy is in lockdown, we had to cover additional transport of medicine from home country. So on paper, when they were at home, 2k-2.5k was barely enough and now since there is additional cost of 1k rental, plus unaticipated costs because of the lockdown, it started be more and more problematic. Basically costs went up, but the available amount did not, but none of the sides will negotiate anyhting at all. The debt office probably because they have to follow law/guidelines
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Old 27.04.2020, 21:59
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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In short:
(...)
As for talking to your employer about a different distribution of your salary, this is of no use and a waste of time since the employer has been ordered to give you X amount every month and the rest goes to the debt, and no matter how much you talk with your employer this will not change amount X no matter how much your employer would like it, he simply has no say in this.
I was lucky enough to be in this "silent pfandung" so employer was not yet notified.
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  #25  
Old 27.04.2020, 21:59
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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I will try this, altough I tried to reach the bank on my own and they would not budge, telling me to wait until collection runs its course. Would Beobachter be able to help with that at all?
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I would think that the Beobachter advice to work with a non-profit debt advisory service is sound.
Mullhollander's advice is sound. He's not referring you to the Beobachter, but to one of the non-profit debt advisory services. And yes, they know the Swiss procedures inside out, and are more likely to be able to negotiate on your behalf. You understand clearly that you are in this situation, or in it worse, because you made an erroneous assumption about your salary increase. Now, that's the kind of thing that such an advice service would know. And there may be other factors that they can identify, and set right.

The people who work at the debt counselling agency will be qualified and vetted, and the creditor will know about them. Those advisors ask
you all sorts of difficult questions. They will scrutinise all your papers. They will work out different scenarios and add up the numbers in various ways. They will want to get to know your way of thinking.

Just think about it. If you were in that bank, and had either
  • a debtor who came to you to say he couldn't pay and to ask you to negotiate things, or
  • a debt-counsellor from an approved advisory service, writing to say the she as collated all your documents, scrutinised your budgets, re-calculated, and could provide them with a win-win scenario. She has seen you in several appointments, and has gained an impression of your honest intention to do what it takes to settle the debt.
Now.... who'll be more likely to persuade the bank?
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Old 27.04.2020, 22:02
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

I will reach out to them tomorrow as this is something I didn't yet try
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  #27  
Old 27.04.2020, 22:04
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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...since Italy is in lockdown, we had to cover additional transport of medicine from home country.
I still don't understand about the medical costs. See also post 11 above.
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Old 27.04.2020, 22:42
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

- she has additional insurance to cover transportation etc, since she is in high risk group
- medicine plus cardio-tele costs around 200 chf on its own and since the lockdown and anticipated issues with contact with our doctors but also wanting to avoid the risk of contacting local doctors we wanted to order a bigger package, with other necessities
- upon our arrival we had to swap apartment because the first one as terrible which we didn't know unitl we already arrived, so I had to make two trips = additional costs for our budget.
You might ask why debt collection office would care about my trips: alternative solution was for me to bring them Switzerland = 3* months deposit for a bigger apartment + same travel costs. Overall I was looking for an optimal money saving option , basing onthe assumption that debt collection isn't about puting my wife at risk for the sake of collection
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Old 27.04.2020, 22:50
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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...Overall I was looking for an optimal money saving option , basing onthe assumption that debt collection isn't about puting my wife at risk for the sake of collection
I hate to say this, but I'm trying to look at it from both sides with the information you've supplied. A numbers person with the Betreibungsamt is only going to see that you (unfortunately) made one bad decision after another and haven't done anything to improve your situation. Excuses, excuses and all that. Your wife being sick is not our problem, we've heard it all before, etc. Ouch, but that's very likely how they think.

Totally agree with doropfiz and Mullhollander - at this stage you've gone as far as you can with the Betreibungsamt and they don't want to hear any more. You need a professional who knows how to "sell" your case and make it more manageable. Best of luck. It sounds like one unlucky thing after another and it must be very stressful.
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Old 27.04.2020, 23:08
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Yes, basically her health issues forced us to make some ad-hoc decisions that chained into what it is now. And while with my salalry it doesnt seem to be THAT scary and certainly manageable , I am looking for some breathing space until everything colapses.

But why I consider betreibung proceedings a little bit "inhumane" : If I had other obligations, like a mortgage in my home country, they wouldnt care at all, instead of working on solution (even if stretched for two years ) they would simply force me to forclose , sell house or whatever. from that perspective an option to become a lumberjack in Sweden sounds better
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  #31  
Old 27.04.2020, 23:31
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Lumberjack? Like this? https://youtu.be/FshU58nI0Ts
Okay, I know yours is a serious situation... but sometimes a little madness can relieve some little part of the stress.
I wish you good luck.
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  #32  
Old 28.04.2020, 00:06
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Two things stand out here, firstly...whatever happened to the original sum loaned of 100k? The 12k you mention is presumably the six months of scheduled repayments missed before the bank started their action against you.
Presumably that 100k was borrowed for something concrete such as a new car, in which case this would/should now be sold to cover at least some of the original debt.
And secondly why did you/your wife for some reason decide that life cheaper for her and the children in Italy rather than your (her?) homeland of Poland?
Surely if she was already living there she was better off remaining in Poland with all of her children and using the social system there for help with her health problems.

That your step-children's father isn't/can't contributing to their upkeep is something the swiss will want explaining properly, the authorities won't automatically accept that you consider yourself responsible for their living expenses without there being a legal obligation for you to do so in place, especially if there's any possibility somebody else can pay. It's certainly honourable that you feel responsible for them, sadly the swiss don't think like that.

The swiss take non-payment of debt very seriously, and will make serious efforts to recover what is owed; not to the extent of driving you under as they then risk never being repaid, but they won't make it easy for you either.
Take Mullhollander's advice and contact a non-profit debt avisory service for help, it'll look much better if you show you're actively trying to find a solution rather than waiting for the bank to make another move against you.
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  #33  
Old 28.04.2020, 00:37
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

- spent mostly on house renovation, also consolidated other ealier obligations that I carried over form PL
-as I said the oldest daughter is studying, and this move was a great opportunity for her, and since I had the promotion lined up i assumed this will be no issue, also it would be hard to ask her to stop studying. and as I mentioned my wife couldnt really stay on her one in Poland, so it was either this or switzerland, which would cost more
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  #34  
Old 28.04.2020, 00:48
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Take Mullhollander's advice and contact a non-profit debt avisory service for help, it'll look much better if you show you're actively trying to find a solution rather than waiting for the bank to make another move against you
This.
And specifically, "actively trying to find a solution" within what the Swiss see as a solution.

And yes, I agree with Anjela that your responsibility to support your wife's children will need to be documented in some way. This could include things such as: the children's father's death certificate, proof that he is in prison or impoverished, or that he has stated that he refuses support, or Court Orders against him to show amounts due, letters your wife may have written him proving that she asked him to provide support, bank statements reflecting that he used to pay, but then stopped. I'm not saying that you'd be required to supply all of these, or these specifically, but since you want the Betreibungsamt to calculate more generously on account of these "extra" children, they will need some sort of document that shows why, exactly, you are financially responsible for childen who are not yours - beyond your personal sense of spousal and parental responsibility and honour.

Always think about the fact that the Swiss authorities, in this case the Betreibungsamt, sees no reason to deviate from their system. They will not even consider looking at such an application unless you can provide new proof they have not yet seen, and it will help if you can phrase things "Swiss-like". The onus on proving your point of view to them is on you: find ways to provide them with reassurance that your claims are true.

That's why Anjela is right to ask what actually happened to the money borrowed. While you were making the repayments reliably, what you had done with it was none of anyone's business Now that you've deviated from the agreed repayment schedule, and especially now that you will want to apply for leniency, you can expect to have to justify and document what you did with it.
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Old 28.04.2020, 02:03
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Anyway makes perfect sense, will see what tomorrow brings. I 'd just like to clarify that debt payment is taken as seriously in Poland. It's just that system in case of delays works a little bit differently and I would say is more flexible
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  #36  
Old 28.04.2020, 17:32
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

So, I contacted the schulde-zh and all they told me is that it might be hard to negotiate with the bank , since they will get more if the lohnpfandung continues. So basically all they told me is that there is nothing I can do form that end.
I suppose the only other option is to go to Bezirksgericht which I presume is court to try and change the decision.
It seems to be problematic, because I expect it will: cost me and will probably take long enough that the whole proceeding ends in August .
Question is: is there some kind of law firm/organization that could simply point me what articles could be used (for example right to education costs of children etc) to modify the existenz minimum. Or should I try and as schulde-zh about that?
thanks
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  #37  
Old 29.04.2020, 03:16
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

This link, also from the Beobachter (to which Edwin already linked, above) gives a bit more detail of how the amounts for the Lohnpfändung are calculated. http://www.srfcdn.ch/radio/modules/d...npfaendung.pdf

Some of the extra expenses which could possibly be considered include, amongst others:
Unterstützungs- und Unterhaltsbeiträge
(dazu gehören rechtlich und moralisch geschuldete Leistungen, die der Schuldner an nicht in seinem Haushalt lebende Personen nachweisbar geleistet hat und während der Lohnpfändung weiter leistet)
 Schulkosten der Kinder (Schulgeld, Material, Verpflegung, Fahrauslagen)
 Abzahlung von Miete oder Leasing bis zur ordentlichen Vertragserfüllung
 weitere notwendige Auslagen für Arzt, Zahnarzt, Medikamente, Betreuung und Pflege von Familienangehörigen, Wohnungswechsel und anderes.


from deepl
Support and maintenance contributions
(this includes legally and morally owed payments which the debtor has demonstrably made to persons not living in his household and continues to make during the attachment of wages)
 School costs of the children (school fees, materials, food, travel expenses)
 Payment of rent or leasing until the regular fulfilment of the contract
 other necessary expenses for doctor, dentist, medication, care and nursing of family members, change of residence and others
I found it surprising and rather pleasing that this list includes not only those payments that are legally due, but also those that are morally due.

There simply is only one way to avoid providing thorough documentation; just live with the restrictions (horrible as that prospect is). Indeed, if you are found to have withheld information about any parts of your income or assets, this will count against you.

However, an application for a re-calculation may be consiered. The more complete your detailed bills and receipts, for all the extra costs you have, the more likely your application is to be considered favourably. Please note, in particular, that for an expense to be acknowledged, the application must include proof that you were also already reallycovering these costs before the Lohnpfändung was set up.

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Question is: is there some kind of law firm/organization that could simply point me what articles could be used (for example right to education costs of children etc) to modify the existenz minimum. Or should I try and as schulde-zh about that?
thanks
Have a look at the links provided in the above pdf. In particular, https://www.schuldeninfo.ch/materialien.html scroll down to ""Das Budget ins Gleichgewicht bringen – die Schulden sanieren!", and there click on "Für Profis". That will take you to laws/rules of various cantons. And to excel tables you can used to do the calculations: scroll down to "Budget" and "Betreibungsrechtliches Existenzminimum". In any case, before your present any such documents to the Betreibungsamt, I urge you to get an advice centre in your canton to check that you've been working within the requirements of your canton.

Last edited by doropfiz; 29.04.2020 at 03:46.
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  #38  
Old 29.04.2020, 04:02
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

You've mentioned that the matter will be over in August. What do you mean by that, exactly? Do you mean that if the Lohnpfändung carries on, as it is set up now, for the remaining 4 months (May to August), you will then have paid of the entire debt, and be free?

You are trying either
1. to persuade the Betreibungsamt that the calculation of your basic needs is incorrect such that, with these newly documented expenses taken into account, they will allow you a slightly greater slice of your salary, every month. If the Betreibungsamt permits this, then, I believe, the bank will have no option to accept it.
OR
2. to persuade the bank that you have stepped up your payment morale, and that you are once again worthy of their risking trusting you, such that they might allow a slower repayment pace.


To do the first,
as I have said before, you will need to provide the Betreibungsamt with every single paper for as many items as possible, on the list/in the excel table. In doing so, your re-calculation should show that even if they let you have a slightly less strickt Lohnpfändung, you will still be able to achieve the point now scheduled for August, but by September, say, or by October.

To achieve the second,
you would need to have paid everything properly for a while. Do not be tempted (by your yearning to supply your family what they need) to deviate from strict adherence to the repayment schedule. If you default now, even partially, you will seal your fate as being permanently regarded as unrealiable, and can expect no further lenience from the bank until they have received every penny, on their terms. If, on the other hand, you reliably pay April, and then again May, all properly, all correctly, no delays, no short payments to the bank and none to anyone else, then perhaps they may reconsider for June or July, and so on.


Whatever you want to claim will become possible, if at all, only if it can pass eagle-eyed inspection with a full set of every single supporting docoument. And any proposal you make still needs to demonstrate that you will achieve all you newly pledge, by the new, later, date you're suggesting.
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  #39  
Old 29.04.2020, 09:59
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Hello,
I mean that the process started in september last year so altough I won't be debt free I will be able to negotiate with the bank after this runs its course.
Is morally owed debt like money I owe to friends or family or is it something different?
Because obviously I also have this problem, which is currently not even taken into account.
both options 1 and 2 were already rejected, by the bank multiple times.
so it seems I have no options here
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Old 29.04.2020, 12:51
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Hello,
I mean that the process started in september last year so altough I won't be debt free I will be able to negotiate with the bank after this runs its course.
Is morally owed debt like money I owe to friends or family or is it something different?
Because obviously I also have this problem, which is currently not even taken into account.
both options 1 and 2 were already rejected, by the bank multiple times.
so it seems I have no options here
Hi petezurich,
I'm really trying to help you. You (or your finances) seem to be in a mess, and as far as I read your posts here, you have not understood how the system works. That's no reproach. After all, it is overwhelming.

Yes, it is true that you will have no options if you don't learn the system. But it is also true that you may very well have better options if you do learn how things work.

Whether you try to deal with a debt counselling service (such as Mullhollander suggested, or as linked to by Edwin and the Beobachter, and here's another one https://www.caritas-zuerich.ch/hilfe...n-mit-schulden), or to appeal to the Betreibungsamt, or to the bank.... if you supply them with information in the way you have been answering my questions here... I'm sorry to say, but you will not succeed.

The thing is: the whole Swiss system in this regard works on precise facts, and it will require of you to provide all the documentation to prove them.

Several people have asked you questions, but I do not understand at least some of your your answers. Then I have asked again, and still I do not understand what you are saying, or you don't answer parts of the questions asked of you here. Of course you don't owe me any answers. And it is wise not to supply all your personal details on a public forum. I think, though, that you are only likely to succeed if you read all the links, to understand the system. And then act within that system.

You write, for example:
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both options 1 and 2 were already rejected, by the bank multiple times.
so it seems I have no options here
but the option 1 I outlined above is not addressed to the bank. That appeal can be addressed to the Betreibungsamt, if you use the Excel table linked to towards the end of my Post 11, above. Have you already made your appeal to them using all the full details, and failed at that? If you have submitted a full detailed budget, on what basis did they reject your request for a slightly slower rate of payment?

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Hello,
Is morally owed debt like money I owe to friends or family or is it something different?
Because obviously I also have this problem, which is currently not even taken into account.
I think "morally" in this sense probably means supporting spouse, children, parents. At least part of the answer lies in this: "Please note, in particular, that for an expense to be acknowledged, the application must include proof that you were also already really covering these costs before the Lohnpfändung was set up."

Last edited by doropfiz; 29.04.2020 at 13:55. Reason: adding link to Caritas Schuldenberatung
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