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  #41  
Old 29.04.2020, 14:05
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Hello,
I mean that the process started in september last year so altough I won't be debt free I will be able to negotiate with the bank after this runs its course.
Is morally owed debt like money I owe to friends or family or is it something different?
Because obviously I also have this problem, which is currently not even taken into account.
both options 1 and 2 were already rejected, by the bank multiple times.
so it seems I have no options here
If you had more debts you should have brought them in at the proces of Betreibung when they decided how much could go to the bank, if you got the debts afterwards or silenced about them they are mostly considered your own problem, and if the other debts cannot be proven they simply do not exist for the betriebungsamt.

If you want help I'd suggest you write one proper post will proper details instead of adding more and more circumstances during the topic.
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  #42  
Old 29.04.2020, 14:13
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Personal bankruptcy is something you really really want to avoid in Switzerland...it would destroy any financial credibility here for years if not forever.
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  #43  
Old 29.04.2020, 14:35
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Personal bankruptcy is something you really really want to avoid in Switzerland...it would destroy any financial credibility here for years if not forever.
Besides that it simply would make no sense at all, if he has the money to start the process than there's no need to recalculate the amounts since he would have more than enough money left anyway.
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  #44  
Old 29.04.2020, 15:18
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Hi / Czesc!


Given your profile says you're a Software Engineer, and given you are here alone, I guess you have some time in the evenings / weekends... have you considered getting a side job / gig to help with financial situation?
I this profession that should be possible.

Now, I don't know if this would help you situation or faster repayment of debt but would help overall.


Powodzenia!
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  #45  
Old 29.04.2020, 15:56
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Hello,
I went to betriebung with every cost listed, with bank transfer confirmations, with contract and payment for the apartment in Italy, the hospital diagnosis, confirmation of payment of insurance etc. Still they said: family does not live in Switzerland, they agreed to 2k CHF, which they say was generous since some of the children are not mine anyway, and since I got salary increase they do not care if my costs of living increased. I mentioned other loans that I had: they said they don't care, since all other problems , at least in Switzerland, will simply wait in line until this collection ends. And credits in other country that I was paying before are not counted at all.
So basically: you have mortgage or anything: tough luck, and all this for delay of around 12k. As you can imagine sometimes it feels as if instead of taking care of what I owe I would be better of starting a new lumberjack career if I am supposed to lose all belongings because of this.

In addition there is something I am unsure about: I have read the law more or less and it seems money like kinderzulage is an exemption for the collection, while they claim, that if it were attached to my salary it would still be collected. And I believe this should not be the case.

So, to sum up, sorry for being chaotic: I provided the documentation and I was actually discussing the costs of living in Italy in January already, but than Ive heard that "ok for now, but we have to ask some higher-up" and when he became available it was: nope, sorry, cant do that.

@Jaceq: as for additional job: I actually work extra from home, doing a side business, but this is not a contract job and will bring money in about -4-5 months. This is something I started before this problem occurred so it might be hard to find another job that demands only 2-3 hrs a day
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  #46  
Old 29.04.2020, 15:58
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Besides that it simply would make no sense at all, if he has the money to start the process than there's no need to recalculate the amounts since he would have more than enough money left anyway.
Actually it potentially would make sense: if I am suppoused to pay 4.5k each month for the next 4 months, it is better to pay 4k once and , at least in theory, force the bank to reach agreement with me directly as I've read that is what may happen with start of this process
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  #47  
Old 29.04.2020, 16:10
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Actually it potentially would make sense: if I am suppoused to pay 4.5k each month for the next 4 months, it is better to pay 4k once and , at least in theory, force the bank to reach agreement with me directly as I've read that is what may happen with start of this process
That's really short term thinking. Your family will depend on you in the long term. I'd be thinking how to get this over as quickly as possible rather than how to drag it out if I were you. Taking on a new job to pay back the debt quicker for example.

The property you renovated- can you sell it? Do you have family that could help?
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  #48  
Old 29.04.2020, 16:23
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Sell it and come back where, when my family returns form Italy?
I already used up available family resources.
That is exactly what I am doing, trying to get over it as quickly as possible. I made steps to increase my salary significantly to cover additional expense and still bring more to the betraibung, and they dont care.
In addition it seems you miss something: If I earn extra on a side job I still have to bring it to the betreibung, since the collect all income so it changes nothing unless I try to hide it, which is illegal.
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  #49  
Old 29.04.2020, 17:05
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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Actually it potentially would make sense: if I am suppoused to pay 4.5k each month for the next 4 months, it is better to pay 4k once and , at least in theory, force the bank to reach agreement with me directly as I've read that is what may happen with start of this process
The bank already has an agreement with you

And if you have 4K spare, you could also give your family 1K extra for 4 months in a row, or are you going to take the money that you so desperately need and put it in a gamble of which you do not even know if they will accept you, and if so if the amounts even will change, now that would be incredible stupid, might as well take it to the horse track.
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  #50  
Old 29.04.2020, 17:25
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

I don't have 4k to spare, but it is either I pay to betreibung or hopefully I stop the betriubng process with bankruptcy. Yes the bank has an agreement but court process could move it out of betreibung, potentially.


I am not really sure if you are trying to be sarcastic here:
- I made mistakes and had some bad luck, now I am basically 1k a month short until August. I don't believe I am unreasonable in thinking that selling my home to get by the next 4 months is something I should do, considering the amount I owe and my earning potential.
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  #51  
Old 29.04.2020, 17:35
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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I don't have 4k to spare, but it is either I pay to betreibung or hopefully I stop the betriubng process with bankruptcy. Yes the bank has an agreement but court process could move it out of betreibung, potentially.


I am not really sure if you are trying to be sarcastic here:
- I made mistakes and had some bad luck, now I am basically 1k a month short until August. I don't believe I am unreasonable in thinking that selling my home to get by the next 4 months is something I should do, considering the amount I owe and my earning potential.
I might be partially sarcastic, but this is since I am amazed that you keep thinking Bankruptcy will be the solution to your problems. How will you feed your family and pay your rent if they say "thanks for the 4K (a minimum) and here have the same deal?IT just sounds to me like more of what you already have done to much, stacking debt on debt. And also how you do things, you first move your family to Italy and than decide to talk with the bank thinking they'd give you more money, you should have first talked to the bank instead of raising your need for private money. I've had my own business and I had people with debts and if they came upfront with good reasons I had zero problem with lowering their monthly payment, but if they came afterwards I was not even willing to discuss things especially not if they already had broken an earlier agreement, and the bank seems to share this opinion.

Even if they would grant it, there is no telling upfront if they would give you a 1.000 extra each month, what if your total cost would be 6K and they grant you a 300,- a month extra, what are you going to do in such case. You want to bet but can't afford to lose, which is why I said you might as well bring it to the horse track.
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  #52  
Old 29.04.2020, 17:52
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

As I mentioned; I discussed this briefly with the debt office before move to Italy, but obviously could produce the documents only after. And all was "fine" until now they told me that actually it wont work, so I have to pay back the missing amounts from Feb - Apr, while I assumed there was some agreement in that regards already.
In addition, I negotiated salary increase to actually cover all this and more, so not only they balance would remain the same, it would actually be better because I could pay more a month.
So instead you suggest I should have negotiated a salary decrease since I would still get the same amount and they would get even less, but maybe I could have a day off or sth.
I am not considering bankruptcy, it just feels like the office would prefer if everything collapses around me , so if I quit my job today and they have nothing to collect form, is it a preferable solution?


And I dont really understand how consolidating debt into one with lower interest is bad. Also I suppose that financial products like loans are offered because they are useful for some people, and all would be fine if not for the issue with my wife's health.



Could I have been smarter? Maybe, maybe I could find a wife without children, maybe invest in bitcoin 10 years back. I suppose I am not the only person in the entire world that runs into problems for one reason or another.
All I have to say is that I prepared solutions and I think I was reasonable in expecting that education costs are taken into account, thats all.
Would you so easily tell your child : for this year you need to stop studying, you will lose a year, but well, tough luck. especially that education cost is specified in the betreibung rules.
If I brought my family here the costs would be even higher and then they would have to cover all of them. So it rises a question: is it about getting the most for the creditor or just making the situation the worst for the debtor?
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  #53  
Old 29.04.2020, 18:29
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

I can see you're frustrated and overwhelmed, so this is going to come across as very harsh. But you must get it through your head that this is how the bank and Betreibungsamt see it, in a nutshell:

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We do not care about your sob story. We don't want the world to collapse around you, but here in Switzerland we pride ourselves on personal responsibility. You're the one who took the loan and we gave it to you in good faith. When it looked like you might struggle with payments, you didn't contact us, you just stopped paying your obligation. Only after that did you come to us with varying stories of your problems. Yes, you can tell your child to take a gap year. Yes, you can sell your house. Yes, you should try to make the father of those 3 children pay his share, because they are not yours regardless of your moral feelings about it. Sure, you can file bankruptcy but you'll still owe us the money.
That's how they see it. Each thing you come back with, clearly they see it as an excuse. It's not nice and they are not sympathetic to your cause. They're over it. Again, ouch.

You're going to have to make some tough choices. I don't envy you. But you have to get on top of this now and stop kicking it down the road.

If I were in your shoes, I'd start by making a list of every Rappen I'm spending and then scrutinize it as if I work for the bank and Betreibungsamt. I'd ask myself
  • Is every Rappen I am spending strictly necessary for survival?
  • Where can I find things to cut back?
  • Who all has cell phone plans with data? Can I reduce that?
  • How much is being spent on cable or satellite?
  • How much on eating out, new clothes, etc. (ok, prior to the lockdown)?
  • Would the whole family benefit if the daughter stopped schooling for now and those funds went towards clearing the debt?

Take care.
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  #54  
Old 29.04.2020, 18:34
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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As I mentioned; I discussed this briefly with the debt office before move to Italy, but obviously could produce the documents only after. And all was "fine" until now they told me that actually it wont work, so I have to pay back the missing amounts from Feb - Apr, while I assumed there was some agreement in that regards already.
In addition, I negotiated salary increase to actually cover all this and more, so not only they balance would remain the same, it would actually be better because I could pay more a month.
So instead you suggest I should have negotiated a salary decrease since I would still get the same amount and they would get even less, but maybe I could have a day off or sth.
I am not considering bankruptcy, it just feels like the office would prefer if everything collapses around me , so if I quit my job today and they have nothing to collect form, is it a preferable solution?


And I dont really understand how consolidating debt into one with lower interest is bad. Also I suppose that financial products like loans are offered because they are useful for some people, and all would be fine if not for the issue with my wife's health.



Could I have been smarter? Maybe, maybe I could find a wife without children, maybe invest in bitcoin 10 years back. I suppose I am not the only person in the entire world that runs into problems for one reason or another.
All I have to say is that I prepared solutions and I think I was reasonable in expecting that education costs are taken into account, thats all.
Would you so easily tell your child : for this year you need to stop studying, you will lose a year, but well, tough luck. especially that education cost is specified in the betreibung rules.
If I brought my family here the costs would be even higher and then they would have to cover all of them. So it rises a question: is it about getting the most for the creditor or just making the situation the worst for the debtor?
I don't judge you for having a debt, heck nothing wrong with that.

But you had no clearance from debt department to do this yet you decided to go ahead with moving your whole family to Italy since your daughter wanted to study abroad.

And yes education costs is specified and allowed for, but even you must see the difference between following a study and moving the whole family to another country.
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Old 29.04.2020, 18:51
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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  • Who all has cell phone plans with data? Can I reduce that?
  • How much is being spent on cable or satellite?
These contracts (phone/internet/tv/insurance), is one able to downgrade or cancel with some letter from the Betreibung?
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  #56  
Old 29.04.2020, 19:04
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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But you had no clearance from debt department to do this yet you decided to go ahead with moving your whole family to Italy since your daughter wanted to study abroad.

And yes education costs is specified and allowed for, but even you must see the difference between following a study and moving the whole family to another country.

As I stated before: my wife cannot stay alone with 5 year old and 12 year old because she is at risk of ventricular fibrillation. It was either this or moving to Switzerland, which would cost more (apartment + deposit) so a reasonable solution was to move them to Italy.


And as I mentioned before, I was asking about the move to italy prior to doing so, which was greenlit by "lower level " personnel, which seems to be the problem in the end.


So I basically told them: I will make more money, you can take more, can you leave me some. And now they realized that , well maybe not. I didnt come with a sob story but a reasonable solution to a problem. Unless health concerns are also not important and "well, if your wife state gets worse or she dies, tough luck"


Also fair point: if you have ongoing cellular contracts you are just supposed to stop paying them and wait for the collection at the end of this process.



To continue on this logic: I could now tell betreibung my family moves here, because they cannot force family separation. I will have to fork around 7-8k for rent + deposit. So I believe I am rather reasonable in looking for cheaper solutions
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  #57  
Old 29.04.2020, 19:41
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

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...To continue on this logic: I could now tell betreibung my family moves here, because they cannot force family separation. I will have to fork around 7-8k for rent + deposit. So I believe I am rather reasonable in looking for cheaper solutions
Unfortunately moving your family here at this stage is unrealistic. Any landlord will want an extract from the Betreibungsamt before they rent to you. Actually it sounds like you already had a debt issue before they moved to Italy, so you made the best choice you could with the information at the time.

Nothing at all wrong with looking for cheaper solutions! That reminded me of this post from doropfiz up-thread.

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... the option 1 I outlined above is not addressed to the bank. That appeal can be addressed to the Betreibungsamt, if you use the Excel table linked to towards the end of my Post 11, above. Have you already made your appeal to them using all the full details, and failed at that? If you have submitted a full detailed budget, on what basis did they reject your request for a slightly slower rate of payment?
Have you proposed a solution with accurate numbers and documentation, something along the lines of "I can give you 500 per month but not 1,000, and here are all the reasons why". Or have you been a bit less specific, saying "it's too much" and hoping they will come up with a better number? If you haven't made a counter-offer, so to speak, now seems like a good time using the spreadsheet doropfiz mentions. Everything is worth a try at this point.
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Old 29.04.2020, 19:48
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

As I mentioned: I provided all the documentation of why they moved, what it costs and that I can cover it and still give them more then in December, but it simply did not work.

Anyway I think I will have to source the missing 4k somewhere and that's about it. It wont be easy but for now I don;t see any hope on the betreibungs side
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Old 29.04.2020, 22:15
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

Just so you know: Edwin, Mullhollander and 3Wishes are three regular contributors to this forum, and they know quite a lot about how things work here, and tend to back up what they say with references. You are hearing things you don't like, but not from unkind, silly people, but from those who are applying their years of experience to your situation, with goodwill..

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As I mentioned: I provided all the documentation of why they moved, what it costs and that I can cover it and still give them more then in December, but it simply did not work.
As far as I understand you, you let your family move to Italy before obtaining written confirmation from the Betreibungsamt about whether or not your new calculations would be approved. It sounds to me like your intentions were good, but this is just not the way things work here.

The steps are:
  1. find out how things work in Switzerland
  2. draw up several versions of your budget
  3. submit all the supporting documents
  4. ask for something very specific in quantity, quality and duration
  5. wait for approval
  6. if rejected, understand the grounds upon which the application was turned down, so you can see whether you can fix those (upgrade to what is required of you) and re-apply.

To determine whether or not you have any chance of being re-assessed more leniently:
Can you go back, now, and look at the documentation you submitted to the Betreibungsamt, and compare it to the Excel table referred to above? If you do that exercise, do you get the same result? If you submitted several versions of your budget, can you demonstrate these on that Excel table?
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Old 29.04.2020, 23:29
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Re: lohnpfändung - minimum amount, family abroad

So far the process I have met in betriebungsamt didn't seem very "calculated"
Before the January I presented the documents, they were briefly looked on and I received calculation.
On january I asked about the travel and they said: bring the documents and we will see. As you can understand it is hard to bring rental documents before first moving to a different country.

I suppose my mistake was understanding "we will see" as: if the rental documents are in order, there will be no problem.


It is not that I like or dislike what I hear. They are stating facts and I am fine with that, but sometimes it feels a little bit patronizing to hear: "You should pay your debts" or "This is not how things work here, you need to bring the documents"
I assure you, things work the same at my home country and I would still have to document everything
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