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Old 23.05.2020, 17:12
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Kurzarbeit/Short Working

Hi,

I have some questions about how Kurzarbeit/Shortworking operates.

If a company is granted permission to use Kurzarbeit for an employee and as an example month lets say we have this sample scenario.

Sample Scenario
  • Brutto Salary is Fr 1000.00
  • 100% of the month the employee was not able to work.
  • 80% = 800.00 Fr
  • AHV/ALV/.. = 62.225 Fr
  • Company receives 862.23 from the Arbeitlossenkasse.
Questions
  1. Is the company expected to pay 800.00 to the employee ?
  2. Or is it expected to pay 1000.00 LESS the normal deductions AHV/ALV/NBUV/KTG/BVG ?
  3. Something else ?

Regards

Kt.
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  #2  
Old 23.05.2020, 17:37
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

https://www.vita.ch/de/vorsorgetheme...SAAEgJbT_D_BwE

Answers everything (In German tho), hope that works for you.
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  #3  
Old 23.05.2020, 17:47
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

Thank you, I'll have to see if google translate will help me with the German
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Old 23.05.2020, 17:53
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

Unfortunately that page doesn't seem to provide the answers to my questions. Or if it does then I'm completely missing the answers.
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Old 23.05.2020, 18:32
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

#3.

800.00 LESS the normal deductions AHV/ALV/NBUV/KTG/BVG ?

Tom
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Old 23.05.2020, 18:50
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

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#3.

800.00 LESS the normal deductions AHV/ALV/NBUV/KTG/BVG ?

Tom
His example is off anyway since 100% reduction in working time is not possible to qualify for Kurzarbeit afaik, unless quarantaine but than they only pay 10 days max.
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Old 23.05.2020, 20:59
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

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100% of the month the employee was not able to work.
What does "not able" mean? If you happen to be sic, then you are not on Kurzarbeit and will receive your salary according to the sick-leave regulations.
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Old 23.05.2020, 22:26
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

I think he/she means "not able" in the sense of being prevented by the employer from working, as in, no work to do, or closed. Hence the employer being able to claim Kurzarbeit at all.
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Old 24.05.2020, 00:21
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

roughly you will loose 10 % of your net income.
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Old 24.05.2020, 20:22
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I think he/she means "not able" in the sense of being prevented by the employer from working, as in, no work to do, or closed. Hence the employer being able to claim Kurzarbeit at all.
Yes, this. My company is unable to provide me with any work because of the current situation. In march it was able to provide a few days work but the rest of March it could not.

And then all of April it could provide no work and again in May it is looking to be the same [ so far ].

I'm trying try to work out how much of the money received from the Arbeitlossenkasse by my company should be given to the employee [ me ].

The numbers given above were just sample numbers. I am getting different answers [ from different sources ] to the question of "how much of the money received from the Arbeitlossenkasse" should be given to the employee.

It is all a bit confusing. As my company has very little money due to the 100% stop in work orders it is relying on Kurzarbeit to pay me something but I don't know how much of that kurzarbeit money should be given to me by my company [ which I own ]. Even my company accountant, who it can't afford to pay right now, doesn't seem to know. Which is making it all a bit difficult as I have to pay rent at the end of this coming week and need to take money from the company as a salary but don't know how much of the Arbeitlossenkasse money is allowed to be given to the employee [me].

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His example is off anyway since 100% reduction in working time is not possible to qualify for Kurzarbeit afaik, unless quarantaine but than they only pay 10 days max.
I was given it until September.

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#3.
.
800.00 LESS the normal deductions AHV/ALV/NBUV/KTG/BVG ?

Tom
Thanks for the reply. Are you sure ?

The Arbeitlossenkasse already added AHV of 62.225 to the 800.00.

It seems strange to then have to deduct AHV from the 800.00 and then also deduct the ALV/NBUV/KTG/BVG.

It might make more sense to deduct AHV of 62.225 from 862.225 and then the ALV/NBUV/KTG/BVG from the remaining 800.00.

But I'm guessing. Even my company accountant/bookkeeper doesn't seem to know.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 24.05.2020 at 20:54. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 24.05.2020, 22:29
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

Because AHV/ALV... premium is paid (at least) 50% by employer and 50% deducted from employee gross salary, the amount that should be paid out in this example would be 800 minus the AHV/ALV... premium (employee contributions).
I assume the kurzarbeit subsidy provides the employer with the 80% of the "lost" work plus the value of the employer contribution on this amount.
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Old 24.05.2020, 22:53
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

Are you not affected by the change that at the end of May they stop with this short Labour refund for people in positions where they decide over their own function?

Anyway: (all random fantasised numbers)

Let's say you earn 1.000,- normally.

Now you get 80% thus: 800,- bruto as employee, if employer costs are 100,- than the employer gets 900,-

Of this he pays 100,- for his normal employer costs, than he performs the normal employee deductions which could be 150,- and than he pays the 650,- netto to the employee.
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Old 25.05.2020, 00:06
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

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Are you not affected by the change that at the end of May they stop with this short Labour refund for people in positions where they decide over their own function?.
I honestly don't know the answer to that. I have a letter that says I have Kurzarbeit allowed until September, and it says after that I would have to re-apply. I'll keep submitting the required forms each month as long as necessary and while allowed. If I get a letter saying no then I'll have to abide by it then I guess.

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Anyway: (all random fantasised numbers)

Let's say you earn 1.000,- normally.

Now you get 80% thus: 800,- bruto as employee, if employer costs are 100,- than the employer gets 900,-

Of this he pays 100,- for his normal employer costs, than he performs the normal employee deductions which could be 150,- and than he pays the 650,- netto to the employee.
Ok, that seems reasonable [ if disappointing ].

I'm grateful that I get anything but I pay the same insurances on my salary as for any other employee of my company [ which do not exist ] but if both myself and this fictional other employee had the same salary [ for example Brutto 6500.00 ] then the AHV/ALV1/../BVG etc would seem to be the same and yet as the owner employee I am capped at 4150.00 but the other (fictional) employee is capped at approx 12,000.00 so as the owner I get less 'return' for the insurances etc. I find that strange but it is what it is.

Unfortunately, my company's work assignments, which come via a chain of other companies, rely on my company's ability to send me to service customers in their offices across Europe & the Middle East and the different lockdowns resulted in all the work assignment bookings for my company being cancelled until now. In principal, remote working is possible but it is up to the clients if they want to support/allow that.

Thank you very much for the information, I'll take it up further with my accountants as well to see what they say.
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Old 25.05.2020, 00:08
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

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I assume the kurzarbeit subsidy provides the employer with the 80% of the "lost" work plus the value of the employer contribution on this amount.
I believe so.
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Old 25.05.2020, 00:18
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

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I honestly don't know the answer to that. I have a letter that says I have Kurzarbeit allowed until September, and it says after that I would have to re-apply. I'll keep submitting the required forms each month as long as necessary and while allowed. If I get a letter saying no then I'll have to abide by it then I guess.



Ok, that seems reasonable [ if disappointing ].

I'm grateful that I get anything but I pay the same insurances on my salary as for any other employee of my company [ which do not exist ] but if both myself and this fictional other employee had the same salary [ for example Brutto 6500.00 ] then the AHV/ALV1/../BVG etc would seem to be the same and yet as the owner employee I am capped at 4150.00 but the other (fictional) employee is capped at approx 12,000.00 so as the owner I get less 'return' for the insurances etc. I find that strange but it is what it is.

Unfortunately, my company's work assignments, which come via a chain of other companies, rely on my company's ability to send me to service customers in their offices across Europe & the Middle East and the different lockdowns resulted in all the work assignment bookings for my company being cancelled until now. In principal, remote working is possible but it is up to the clients if they want to support/allow that.

Thank you very much for the information, I'll take it up further with my accountants as well to see what they say.
1: How on earth is this disappointing? You have no orders and somebody still pays you, best deal possible I'd say.

2: The money you get now has nothing to do with insurances.
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Old 25.05.2020, 00:30
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

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1: How on earth is this disappointing? You have no orders and somebody still pays you, best deal possible I'd say.
Based on what you said, the company still has to find the funds to pay its share of the different insurances and BVG specifically (which is a lot because I was poorly advised in the beginning regarding BVG and contractually apparently they can't be lowered ]

It also still also has to pay its non-salary commitments as well.

With no money coming in to the company, finding money to pay those is .. an interesting challenge.

I did also say I was grateful that some help on the salary aspects was available. (albeit strangely unbalanced, given the fictional employee example I gave before)

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2: The money you get now has nothing to do with insurances.
Really? I thought the arbeitlossenkasse money was a consequence of the ALV1/2 deductions/payments made on salaries to-date.

Last edited by Ktyak; 25.05.2020 at 02:57.
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Old 25.05.2020, 07:59
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

If the business does not have enough funds to pay the social charges and pension for the short-time work employees, it could consider:

1. Applying for a liquidity bridge loan. Details are at this link (English):

https://www.easygov.swiss/easygov/#/en/covid

2. Terminating the employees to place them on RAV/ ALK
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Old 29.05.2020, 19:29
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Re: Kurzarbeit/Short Working

It turns out, after much back and forth, that the social costs & insurances have to be calculated based on the Bruttolohn of 1000 and then along with the other items like NVBO/BVG deducted from the theoretical Bruttolohn of 1000, not the Kurzarbeit 800 + Employee AHV.

The company has to come up with the employer's portion of those costs itself as well.

In the example of a Bruttolohn of 1000 then the Arbeitslossenkasse might give 800 + 100 but the actual montly payroll calculations for the employee have to be based on the 1000.

In the fictitious example it sort of worked that the employee received < 400 [ of the 800 + 100 ] with the rest having to be held in reserve to cover the deductions. The killer deduction was the employee BVG contributions as that was contractually based on the original annual salary which was higher that the allowed cap for employees with decision-making powers.

Thanks all for the assistance. All very informative and educational.
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