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  #21  
Old 27.08.2020, 16:55
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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What exactly is Pillar 2e?
1st Pillar is the mandatory State social security Old Age and Disability Insurance. In German, this is called AHV.

2nd Pillar is the mandatory Pension Plan through one's employer (if one earns over a defined minimum). Some employers offer a very good pension plan, which exceeds the mandatory cover. In German, the law governing this is called BVG, and such better benefits are known as "über-obligatorisch", i.e. over the obligatory amounts.

3rd Pillar is whatever you've saved, yourself. It is divided into
  • 3a which is savings blocked until retirement age, and
  • 3b which is anything else.
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  #22  
Old 27.08.2020, 16:59
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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1st Pillar is the mandatory State social security Old Age and Disability Insurance. In German, this is called AHV.

2nd Pillar is the mandatory Pension Plan through one's employer (if one earns over a defined minimum). Some employers offer a very good pension plan, which exceeds the mandatory cover. In German, the law governing this is called BVG, and such better benefits are known as "über-obligatorisch", i.e. over the obligatory amounts.

3rd Pillar is whatever you've saved, yourself. It is divided into
  • 3a which is savings blocked until retirement age, and
  • 3b which is anything else.
If it's a Pillar 2 then it's not a state pension so NHS would be free.

Never heard of Pillar 2e, hence my question.
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  #23  
Old 27.08.2020, 17:02
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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What exactly is Pillar 2e? If it's a private pension then you will get free health care in the UK, only state pensions have the health insurance requirement.
The 1e (premier) pilier is the mandatory AVS.
The 2ème pilier is the mandatory LPP (Fond de Prévoyance) which all employees pay.
The 3ème pilier is the optional private insurance.

As far as I am aware it the LPP is considered a state pension for the purposes of this discussion. I could be wrong
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  #24  
Old 27.08.2020, 17:53
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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The 1e (premier) pilier is the mandatory AVS.
The 2ème pilier is the mandatory LPP (Fond de Prévoyance) which all employees pay.
The 3ème pilier is the optional private insurance.

As far as I am aware it the LPP is considered a state pension for the purposes of this discussion. I could be wrong
LPP is definitely NOT a state pension & irrelevant to the discussion as far as health insurance is required. You can even take your LPP 100% as cash.
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  #25  
Old 27.08.2020, 19:40
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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LPP is definitely NOT a state pension & irrelevant to the discussion as far as health insurance is required. You can even take your LPP 100% as cash.
You're mistaken.

In Switzerland, for the purpose of deciding if a retiree needs to subscribe to LAMal insurance, the following state allocations are taken into consideration :

"En Suisse, les prestations (légales) de l’assurance-vieillesse et survivants (AVS), de l’assurance-invalidité (AI), de l’assurance-militaire (AM), de l’assurance-accidents (AA) et de la prévoyance professionnelle (PP, caisse de pension) sont considérées comme rentes."
Source : https://www.kvg.org/fr/rentiers-_content---1--1041.html

This is equally the case when the 2e pilier is taken as capital :

"Il en va de même pour le versement de capitaux dans le domaine de la prévoyance professionnelle pour autant que l’âge normal de la retraite prévu dans le règlement soit atteint."

The 2e pilier, or LPP, is most definitely considered a state pension.

Only the 3e pilier is excluded.

Last edited by bungow; 27.08.2020 at 20:37.
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  #26  
Old 27.08.2020, 20:43
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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Never heard of Pillar 2e, hence my question.
It's French, that's all. Not "two E", but the abbreviation of "deuxième", meaning second, not "three E" but the abbreviation of "troisième", meaning third.
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  #27  
Old 27.08.2020, 20:54
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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You're mistaken.

In Switzerland, for the purpose of deciding if a retiree needs to subscribe to LAMal insurance, the following state allocations are taken into consideration :

"En Suisse, les prestations (légales) de l’assurance-vieillesse et survivants (AVS), de l’assurance-invalidité (AI), de l’assurance-militaire (AM), de l’assurance-accidents (AA) et de la prévoyance professionnelle (PP, caisse de pension) sont considérées comme rentes."
Source : https://www.kvg.org/fr/rentiers-_content---1--1041.html

This is equally the case when the 2e pilier is taken as capital :

"Il en va de même pour le versement de capitaux dans le domaine de la prévoyance professionnelle pour autant que l’âge normal de la retraite prévu dans le règlement soit atteint."

The 2e pilier, or LPP, is most definitely considered a state pension.

Only the 3e pilier is excluded.
I took my pillar 2 100% as cash aged 52 moving to an EU country. I do not need medical cover until I receive a state pension.
Loads of crap that you can't take 100% if you leave for the EU, it's the requirement for insurance that is key
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Old 27.08.2020, 21:08
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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I took my pillar 2 100% as cash aged 52 moving to an EU country. I do not need medical cover until I receive a state pension.
Loads of crap that you can't take 100% if you leave for the EU, it's the requirement for insurance that is key
At 52 you were not at retirement age, that's why !

The KVG documentation is perfectly clear on the matter :

" pour autant que l’âge normal de la retraite prévu dans le règlement soit atteint."

Anyone retiring to the EU/EFTA or needs to carefully read :
In French https://www.kvg.org/api/rm/F24ZFK9WA2RW7MS
In German https://www.kvg.org/api/rm/Y5HGTB223HEPWYH


You are mistaken when it comes to retirement.
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  #29  
Old 27.08.2020, 21:15
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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At 52 you were not at retirement age, that's why !

The KVG documentation is perfectly clear on the matter :

" pour autant que l’âge normal de la retraite prévu dans le règlement soit atteint."

Anyone retiring to the EU/EFTA or needs to carefully read :
In French https://www.kvg.org/api/rm/F24ZFK9WA2RW7MS
In German https://www.kvg.org/api/rm/Y5HGTB223HEPWYH


You are mistaken when it comes to retirement.
So if you take you Pillar 2 at the SAME time as you are entitlement to Pillar 1 it counts as an OAP. BIG DEAL

You were talking about before retirement age

So if you go to the UK aged 58, cash in your pillar 2 IN FULL as would be legal as you are not working, so no requirement for compulsory insurance. You would NOT need Swiss health insurance until you take your Pillar 1, which can be taken from age 63.
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Old 27.08.2020, 21:21
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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If you WERE working in CH when you left the UK yes

Yes & Yes, I will get a full UK pension even through I left the UK aged 32, had to pay class 3 back then, class 2 option is more recent.
I left the UK recently aged 31. Is it worth me paying voluntary nics?
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  #31  
Old 27.08.2020, 21:32
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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I left the UK recently aged 31. Is it worth me paying voluntary nics?

If it were me, for @£200 a year, I'd pay it.

It's beer money for a pension.
Ok, you can argue the toss about whether it will be available/means tested/add any scenario you like, but it's a punt worth taking.
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  #32  
Old 27.08.2020, 21:36
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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So if you take you Pillar 2 at the SAME time as you are entitlement to Pillar 1 it counts as an OAP. BIG DEAL

You were talking about before retirement age

So if you go to the UK aged 58, cash in your pillar 2 IN FULL as would be legal as you are not working, so no requirement for compulsory insurance. You would NOT need Swiss health insurance until you take your Pillar 1, which can be taken from age 63.
Nope, that's not what is written and not what I was taking about. If you read my earlier posts, I am talking about RETIRING EARLY, at 58. At 58, the earliest retirement age of the LPP, whether you cash-in your LPP or take the retirement pension (rente), you are liable to pay the LAMal if resident in the UK, UNLESS you get a UK state pension OR are working and therefore paying NI contributions in the UK. Read the links I sent you, it's all there.

In French https://www.kvg.org/api/rm/F24ZFK9WA2RW7MS
In German https://www.kvg.org/api/rm/Y5HGTB223HEPWYH

In my case, I will :

RETIRE at 58, having my LPP pension only at first => payment of LAMal necessary.
Get my AVS pension at 65 => still paying LAMal.
Get my UK state pension at 67 : no need to pay LAMal from then on according to the KVG.

Cashing in the LPP by leaving to work in the EU is NOT the same as taking as a retirement lump sum or pension.

Don't believe me, fine ===> https://www.kvg.org/fr/questions-rep...1089--162.html
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  #33  
Old 27.08.2020, 21:50
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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If it were me, for @£200 a year, I'd pay it.

It's beer money for a pension.
Ok, you can argue the toss about whether it will be available/means tested/add any scenario you like, but it's a punt worth taking.
When I go on my profile on hmrc they are asking for £700 something for my existing incomplete years (fairly historical dating back to when I was a student). Where does the £200 come from?
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  #34  
Old 27.08.2020, 21:55
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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When I go on my profile on hmrc they are asking for £700 something for my existing incomplete years (fairly historical dating back to when I was a student). Where does the £200 come from?
HMRC are pulling a sneaky. The amounts they show on their website are Class 3 contributions.

But, as a employee working abroad, you can pay Class 2 contributions.

Quote from https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice....an%20be%20made

Cost of voluntary NICs
The cost depends on the year you want to pay for. The cost for the 2020/21 tax year is:

£15.30 a week for Class 3 voluntary NICs
£3.05 a week for Class 2 voluntary NICs
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Old 27.08.2020, 22:00
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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HMRC are pulling a sneaky. The amounts they show on their website are Class 3 contributions.

But, as a employee working abroad, you can pay Class 2 contributions.

Quote from https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice....an%20be%20made

Cost of voluntary NICs
The cost depends on the year you want to pay for. The cost for the 2020/21 tax year is:

£15.30 a week for Class 3 voluntary NICs
£3.05 a week for Class 2 voluntary NICs
Thanks - this is super helpful. I presume I can only pay the class 2 for the years I'm working abroad and not back pay for my days as a uk student at the class 2 rate.
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  #36  
Old 27.08.2020, 22:07
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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Thanks - this is super helpful. I presume I can only pay the class 2 for the years I'm working abroad and not back pay for my days as a uk student at the class 2 rate.
Correct. It's only for the time you are working abroad that you can continue to build your pension by paying class 2 NICs.

You're not required to pay NICs for your student years, unless you were also in employment.

Here's the form to apply to pay Class 2 NICs : https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ty-abroad-ni38
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Old 27.08.2020, 22:09
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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Correct. It's only for the time you are working abroad that you can continue to build your pension by paying class 2 NICs.

You're not required to pay NICs for your student years, unless you were also in employment.

Here's the form to apply to pay Class 2 NICs : https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ty-abroad-ni38
Many thanks - super helpful. I contributed in 2019/2020 so have to wait a bit before making my first class 2 payment.
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  #38  
Old 27.08.2020, 22:18
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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Correct. It's only for the time you are working abroad that you can continue to build your pension by paying class 2 NICs.

You're not required to pay NICs for your student years, unless you were also in employment.

Here's the form to apply to pay Class 2 NICs : https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ty-abroad-ni38
Sorry to be a pain - one last question. Is this still worth doing if I plan on not returning to the uk?
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Old 27.08.2020, 22:44
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

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Sorry to be a pain - one last question. Is this still worth doing if I plan on not returning to the uk?
I was in your position at your age... life is like a box of chocolates and all that. You never know where you'll end up

It's still worth it because you don't need to live in the UK to get your UK state pension.

Of course what will happen to the state pension over the course of the next 30 years is another matter ! But it's beer money and could well be worth it.
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Old 28.08.2020, 18:31
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Re: Early retirement to the UK : LAMal and NI contributions

For those that have been following, I received written confirmation from KVG today that my understanding is correct concerning early retirement to the UK as a Swiss pensioner and the potential obligation to pay LAMal contributions.

The following situation is for my case and you should contact KVG to ensure you have correctly analysed your own. The following assumes early retirement at 58 years of age and moving to the UK thereof.

1. Upon receiving LPP pension or capital payments (Swiss second pillar pension payments) at 58 years of age, upon condition that (a) I do not have a lucrative activity in the UK, (b) that I am not receiving a UK state pension, and that (c) Switzerland represents the most significant duration of contributions in the event of pension payments from multiple countries, subscription to the LAMal is obligatory. This is controlled by KVG who are informed about your Swiss retirement payments (AVS, LPP, AI).

2. At 65 years of age, I will begin to receive in addition my AVS pension: nothing changes, the LAMal is still obligatory for the same reasons and under the same circumstances.

3. At 67 years of age, I will start to receive the UK state pension: in this case, irrespective of the number of years of NICs payments or the pension amount, I am no longer obliged to subscribe to the LAMal. If I receive no UK state pension, the obligation to subscribe to the LAMal remains in force.

There are of course options to avoid paying the LAMal between 58 years of age and beginning to receive the UK state pension.

Any questions, email eu@kvg.org
Institution commune LAMal, Industriestrasse 78, CH-4600 Olten
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