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View Poll Results: How much would I venture to invest?
None - it is too risky enterprise 4 5.97%
Few thousand CHF - low exposure to risk 9 13.43%
Several ten thousands CHF - medium exposure to risk 21 31.34%
Several hundred thousand CHF - high exposure to risk 15 22.39%
Above the million CHF - no risk averse 11 16.42%
None of your business 7 10.45%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 11.01.2021, 11:33
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Which OS version is your crystal ball using?
maybe he's already got $10m so finds it pretty unlikely it will fall by 90% over 10 years
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  #42  
Old 11.01.2021, 11:38
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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That sounds like the dream! For “compliance” reasons I have to hold my investments and trade through my employer. I’m doing well if I can get the cost per trade under 1% and that’s with employee rates. At least now if I’m prepared to wait a day, I can cycle the currency through Revolut and back and avoid the FX commission if I’m buying non CHF securities. The only upside is it gives me access to Lombard lending if I want it.

I could invest directly in funds, but when I looked into doing this with Fundsmith the account opening process was so complicated that I ended up putting it on the back burner and lost quite a bit of time in the market, before biting the bullet and paying my employer instead. On the plus side that meant being able to buy CHF units and not having to worry about FX commissions.

On topic... our first priority was to buy and renovate the property we wanted. Since doing that pretty much all spare cash beyond the tax savings account, emergency fund and pillar 3 gets invested in a mixture of low cost index equity funds and actively managed equity funds. Pensions are also invested as far as permitted in equities.
I think if that was me I'd just invest in my wife's name or just plain go behind their back.
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  #43  
Old 11.01.2021, 11:43
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Anyway, I think the absolute dollar amount doesn't really say too much about risk. It's about everything else.

If you are barely making ends meet, up to your eyeballs in debt etc. then even $100 is risky.

If you have $1bn in the bank and dozen homes around the world and invest only $1m in the stock market then you are pretty risk averse.

For the average person, their age, income, savings, dependents, potential cash needs, etc. all have a bearing on the riskiness of investment perhaps moreso than the dollar amount invested.
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  #44  
Old 11.01.2021, 11:45
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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20 years ago, maybe even 10 or 5 years ago, there might have been a point when you had to call a broker to make a trade and pay £25 a trade or something ridiculous.

now you can buy funds and fractional stocks with zero commission on your phone with an app. there's also a lot of advice and knowledge on web/youtube with people who will walk you baby steps through the process so that anyone even with zero knowledge of finance/investing and little in funds can still easily invest in low-cost trackers and get market returns (which in the past decade were pretty decent).

in recent years, investing really has been opened up to a lot of people which cheap platforms and plentiful free information. i guess the biggest limit is still that most people are struggling to make ends meet and don't have the luxury of having much spare money to invest in the stock market.
Min was £25 with 1.8% brokerage fee!, rate dropped slightly for deals above £10k
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  #45  
Old 11.01.2021, 11:46
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

I haven't read all the answers so sorry if i repeat what's been said. The poll is a nice idea but does not reflect reality. If you've enough you can invest CHF1 m + and be risk averse. You can equally invest a low amount and take on big risks using leverage.

The golden rule for investing was always based on your age. So at 30 it would be 30% bonds and 70% stocks. At age 70 the other way round, 70% bonds and 30% stocks. However low/negative interest rates have to an extent put paid to that if looking for income, and as they now say, "TINA is back in town". So you invest in stocks as "There Is No Alternative".

I think a better measure nowadays is they type of stocks you invest in. Most Blue Chips will be ok in the long run. However, Rolls Royce was a blue chip and look where it is now. One of the best lessons to learn is taking a loss. And the first loss will always be the cheapest one. Better to lose 5% on a stock than 80%, but for many taking a loss is a very hard thing to do.

What is important is how you fared over the year. You'll always have some losses, even in fixed portfolio, but if you're up 8 - 10% or more by year end you've done well.

A very good book to buy, is "The wisdom of markets and the madness of crowds" by John Nugee. This explains much of the psychology of investing and well worth a read.
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  #46  
Old 11.01.2021, 12:00
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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I think if that was me I'd just invest in my wife's name or just plain go behind their back.
A) she (girlfriend) works for the same company. B) If she didn‘t, it would still be banned by the policy. C) If I got caught it would likely be the end of my career in a FINMA regulated business.

The reality is that I have zero inside information I can trade on, but compliance says it applies to everyone.

I may be willing to take on risk in investments, but I‘m risk averse on killing my career!
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  #47  
Old 11.01.2021, 13:03
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Not sure why the portfolio size in the poll correlates with the risk tolerance.
If you have 10M cash on hand and throw it all in SHY - you must be someone who does not tolerate any risk, if you have 1k cash on hand and you invest everything in TSLA - you like risking a lot
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  #48  
Old 11.01.2021, 13:19
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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A) she (girlfriend) works for the same company. B) If she didn‘t, it would still be banned by the policy. C) If I got caught it would likely be the end of my career in a FINMA regulated business.

The reality is that I have zero inside information I can trade on, but compliance says it applies to everyone.

I may be willing to take on risk in investments, but I‘m risk averse on killing my career!
Being a lawyer (with very little inside information and anyway not invested in those companies), I'd probably get a slap on the wrist, not permanent exclusion from the job market. I guess that makes me see things differently.

But how can they control your girlfriend (if she didn't work the company) - she hasn't signed a contract with them?
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  #49  
Old 11.01.2021, 13:22
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

I would have thought that anyone who is working should have no more than 3-6 months spending money as a cash reserve & the rest should be invested in stocks. If you can live in retirement from pension income then I don't see any reason to change allocation because of age.

In retirement without any pension income then, 12 - 30 months spending money as cash or cash equivalents & the rest invested, that would apply to me.
Since my retirement aged 52 in October 2014 Fundsmith is up 167% in Euros so my invested capital would have grown about 2.5 times after living costs in 6 years & 3 months. i.e if I retired with 600k euro I would have 1,500,000 today after living costs. Very pleased I am heavily invested in equities.
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  #50  
Old 11.01.2021, 13:38
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Being a lawyer (with very little inside information and anyway not invested in those companies), I'd probably get a slap on the wrist, not permanent exclusion from the job market. I guess that makes me see things differently.

But how can they control your girlfriend (if she didn't work the company) - she hasn't signed a contract with them?
I just re-read the detail of the policy. As a member of my household, she would have to disclose her safekeeping accounts, but not move them to my employer. This is applicable in Switzerland. If we were working in the US, she would have to move them. This is the same in all jurisdictions that allow it. I presume that in this case securities law, which has criminal penalties supersedes contract law but IANAL.
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  #51  
Old 11.01.2021, 13:40
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Not sure why the portfolio size in the poll correlates with the risk tolerance.
If you have 10M cash on hand and throw it all in SHY - you must be someone who does not tolerate any risk, if you have 1k cash on hand and you invest everything in TSLA - you like risking a lot
Perhaps you are right. It’s not intended to be biased, diminishing anyone’s market tolerance and financial capability. It’s just sheer reference to average normalized salary of 100k. This might not take into account low earners and top executives whose disposable income is much higher.

For me it’s interesting though how people view the market and one can learn a lot about what magnitude of investment one should do in order to be financially independent in the future.

Those who checked the box “to mind own business” I honor their decision. It’s anonymous poll and would be nice to learn in the end how majority thinks.

I, for one, gather from the poll that I should increase my positions above to what I thought it would be reasonable. Lessons learnt.
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  #52  
Old 11.01.2021, 13:52
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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I just re-read the detail of the policy. As a member of my household, she would have to disclose her safekeeping accounts, but not move them to my employer. This is applicable in Switzerland. If we were working in the US, she would have to move them. This is the same in all jurisdictions that allow it. I presume that in this case securities law, which has criminal penalties supersedes contract law but IANAL.
Interesting. My wife used to work in asset management. There might well have been some rule regarding how I could invest, but if there was she never told me.
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  #53  
Old 11.01.2021, 14:17
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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The only reason you do not know how to invest in stocks is because you don't educate yourself and make the effort to spend some hours reading up on the basics. There is literally no other reason why you do not know how to invest in stocks. No-one is born knowing the basics of how to invest in stocks, so maybe it's better to waste less time on the "woe is slammer" spiel and just get on with investing the time to learn things like this.
What a great idea, now why did I not think of that?
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  #54  
Old 11.01.2021, 15:31
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

I have no investments in stocks.
However, having said that, I have developed a fully automated algorithmic trading strategy that performs a couple of thousand trades each day and I have sold it to an investment firm (not in CH). I charge hedge fund style fees (slice of the PnL) for a license to run the platform and the strategy (it is a black-box to them, they do not have access to the strategy, I do not have access to the computer running the platform). And it is not just stocks, but futures as well.
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Old 11.01.2021, 16:13
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Stocks are riskier than alternatives only on average. It's just a vehicle. If you buy a real estate holding company (at book value), the risk is arguably smaller than investing in real estate directly.
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  #56  
Old 11.01.2021, 16:27
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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What a great idea, now why did I not think of that?
It's anyone's guess, really.
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  #57  
Old 11.01.2021, 16:55
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Stocks are riskier than alternatives only on average. It's just a vehicle. If you buy a real estate holding company (at book value), the risk is arguably smaller than investing in real estate directly.
Rea Estate can be very risky as well depending on the location. It is also difficult to get out of a bad RE deal.
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  #58  
Old 11.01.2021, 16:57
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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I have no investments in stocks.
However, having said that, I have developed a fully automated algorithmic trading strategy that performs a couple of thousand trades each day and I have sold it to an investment firm (not in CH). I charge hedge fund style fees (slice of the PnL) for a license to run the platform and the strategy (it is a black-box to them, they do not have access to the strategy, I do not have access to the computer running the platform). And it is not just stocks, but futures as well.
That's irrelevant to investing. It is like you creating some software and license it to others. I know many quants/developers that don't have a clue about investing and managing money.
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  #59  
Old 11.01.2021, 17:03
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Stocks are riskier than alternatives only on average. It's just a vehicle. If you buy a real estate holding company (at book value), the risk is arguably smaller than investing in real estate directly.
Real estate is usually funded with Bank loans, so it's a geared investment & subsequently fairly high risk. The return without gearing is poor.
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Old 11.01.2021, 18:28
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Right now I have almost everything in stocks(equity) and property.

I am a rather messy investor. I started in my 20s buying small amounts of funds, but sold it all to buy my first property. 17 years later I am living in a property which I could never have afforded if I didn't sell that first property for double the price I paid for it. Plus now I also have a holiday apartment in the mountains (these are mortgaged at 60% and 40% respectively).

In the mean time, I very slowly rebuilt my investment portfolio, I could have invested a lot more I suppose, but I guess I just enjoy spending money too much , and I wanted to keep at least 3 months of salary in cash. This was until March 2020 when I used up all my cash and bought Fundsmith, SSON, VOO, QQQ and SMT, and have continued to put in everything I have left at the end of the month into Fundsmith (I will reduce this as of this month). On paper, my stock holdings went from low 5 figures in Jan 2020 to 6 figures today, but I have almost zero spare cash. I worry all the time now about when I need to get out of the market and make some cash available, so this morning I put in "stop loss" orders on SMT and QQQ, so hopefully I can sleep better. I will keep the Terry Smith stuff for the long term.

As I said I am rather messy. I do not know how to count my property investment as part of the portfolio. Do I count the market value minus the mortgage? Or my initial investment? I'm too scared to find out that I have too much weight on property in my portfolio (which I definitely do). But hey I love the place I live in and I love my holiday apartment...
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