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View Poll Results: How much would I venture to invest?
None - it is too risky enterprise 4 5.97%
Few thousand CHF - low exposure to risk 9 13.43%
Several ten thousands CHF - medium exposure to risk 21 31.34%
Several hundred thousand CHF - high exposure to risk 15 22.39%
Above the million CHF - no risk averse 11 16.42%
None of your business 7 10.45%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 11.01.2021, 18:35
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Real estate is usually funded with Bank loans, so it's a geared investment & subsequently fairly high risk. The return without gearing is poor.
As far as I can see, the return on REITs is usually negative
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  #62  
Old 11.01.2021, 19:13
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Right now I have almost everything in stocks(equity) and property.

I am a rather messy investor. I started in my 20s buying small amounts of funds, but sold it all to buy my first property. 17 years later I am living in a property which I could never have afforded if I didn't sell that first property for double the price I paid for it. Plus now I also have a holiday apartment in the mountains (these are mortgaged at 60% and 40% respectively).

In the mean time, I very slowly rebuilt my investment portfolio, I could have invested a lot more I suppose, but I guess I just enjoy spending money too much , and I wanted to keep at least 3 months of salary in cash. This was until March 2020 when I used up all my cash and bought Fundsmith, SSON, VOO, QQQ and SMT, and have continued to put in everything I have left at the end of the month into Fundsmith (I will reduce this as of this month). On paper, my stock holdings went from low 5 figures in Jan 2020 to 6 figures today, but I have almost zero spare cash. I worry all the time now about when I need to get out of the market and make some cash available, so this morning I put in "stop loss" orders on SMT and QQQ, so hopefully I can sleep better. I will keep the Terry Smith stuff for the long term.

As I said I am rather messy. I do not know how to count my property investment as part of the portfolio. Do I count the market value minus the mortgage? Or my initial investment? I'm too scared to find out that I have too much weight on property in my portfolio (which I definitely do). But hey I love the place I live in and I love my holiday apartment...
There is a huge danger with stop loss's, they may never trigger, the price could fall from 12 to 6 very quickly, a stop loss of 11 may well never execute as it requires a willing buyer at 11 than may never occur.
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  #63  
Old 11.01.2021, 19:42
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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There is a huge danger with stop loss's, they may never trigger, the price could fall from 12 to 6 very quickly, a stop loss of 11 may well never execute as it requires a willing buyer at 11 than may never occur.
Yup. There's a big misconception with stop loss/limit orders: many believe that they limit your downside to the level you set. But as you say, you could have a gap down and realise a loss far greater than you intended.

I never use stop losses as they potentially crystallise volatility into losses.
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  #64  
Old 11.01.2021, 21:35
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Sorry, I meant to say I used a stop loss limit. Sell if it hits a number, but don't sell anymore (might as well keep it) if goes below that limit.
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  #65  
Old 12.01.2021, 00:40
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

absolute number is not really relevant, but I currently sit on too much cash.

Not enough money invested outside of 3a to move to IB and do stuff myself without fees though (afaik you need 100k at least), so currently using a fire-and-forget robotrader (truewealth).
Might move everything to IB once I reach a big enough sum (I wouldn't feel good at pushing most of my cash into equity right now, with all the foreboding about a crash), if I can come up with a plan regarding which funds I buy, since they seem to be the cheapest.
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Old 12.01.2021, 00:45
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Sorry, I meant to say I used a stop loss limit. Sell if it hits a number, but don't sell anymore (might as well keep it) if goes below that limit.
They are better but need to be monitored as you can then be caught out by a gap down followed by a rapid recovery (if you don't cancel quickly enough after the gap down).
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  #67  
Old 12.01.2021, 00:57
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Isn't it best just to watch the market and your investments and react accordingly?
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  #68  
Old 12.01.2021, 01:08
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Slightly off-topic perhaps but in October I finally moved my Pillar 3A - after 8 years of languishing in Credit Suisse - to VIAC, as many on this forum recommended.

At the start of November 2020, after VIAC received my money I allocated most of my 3A fund to their standard global growth / 100% equities option. In 2 months I'm 13.3% up. Obviously I'm not saying that anyone else would be so fortunate, nor am I expecting the fund to continue to grow like that. But just making the point that letting your wealth languish in cash is rarely a good option. Pillar 3A is a bit of scam in any case, so if you've put cash in over the years, as I have, you might as well try to make it work for you.

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There is a huge danger with stop loss's, they may never trigger, the price could fall from 12 to 6 very quickly, a stop loss of 11 may well never execute as it requires a willing buyer at 11 than may never occur.
If that's true - and I do believe pretty much everything that FMF says - then I'm staggered. I've occasionally flirted with shorting but this info is like a bucket of iced water over the feverish investor's head. I'll give it a miss.
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  #69  
Old 12.01.2021, 01:27
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Slightly off-topic perhaps but in October I finally moved my Pillar 3A - after 8 years of languishing in Credit Suisse - to VIAC, as many on this forum recommended.

At the start of November 2020, after VIAC received my money I allocated most of my 3A fund to their standard global growth / 100% equities option. In 2 months I'm 13.3% up. Obviously I'm not saying that anyone else would be so fortunate, nor am I expecting the fund to continue to grow like that. But just making the point that letting your wealth languish in cash is rarely a good option. Pillar 3A is a bit of scam in any case, so if you've put cash in over the years, as I have, you might as well try to make it work for you.



If that's true - and I do believe pretty much everything that FMF says - then I'm staggered. I've occasionally flirted with shorting but this info is like a bucket of iced water over the feverish investor's head. I'll give it a miss.
Nice - you timed that perfectly almost to the day. I put mine in back in May and it's only up 19% since then (still excellent I know!) - albeit the performance since 1 November is nearly as good as yours - 12.7%.

Incidentally if you are going to invest in 3a this year - finpension is now a better option than Viac. New as of November.
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  #70  
Old 12.01.2021, 03:20
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

Since Trump's elected power of lieing about everything from its not Tuesday to the Sun is a different color than you see...

It would not take much brains beyond a high school education to make some very serious coin off the market.

Made $40,000/35,000 CHF over the last several 3-4 months, just off Amazon, AMZN stock. Been so many opportunities over the last year its sickening. Never have enough in my lifetime to chase all the opportunities that 2020 presented.

I will say I do not think the Wild West (American) stock market is going to perpetually keep going up forever and and sooner or later it will come back to reality.
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Old 12.01.2021, 08:59
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Isn't it best just to watch the market and your investments and react accordingly?
Not everyone has the time or the inclination to watch the markets all day every day.
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  #72  
Old 12.01.2021, 09:47
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Not everyone has the time or the inclination to watch the markets all day every day.
If one can find time for EF, then one can find time for market watch as well.
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  #73  
Old 12.01.2021, 10:06
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Slightly off-topic perhaps but in October I finally moved my Pillar 3A - after 8 years of languishing in Credit Suisse - to VIAC, as many on this forum recommended.

At the start of November 2020, after VIAC received my money I allocated most of my 3A fund to their standard global growth / 100% equities option. In 2 months I'm 13.3% up.
You got very lucky. The market went up ~10% in November 2020.
Note: the performance of your strategy for the whole 2020 year is far from stellar, less than 6%
https://viac.ch/en/vested-benefits/strategies/
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  #74  
Old 12.01.2021, 10:50
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Slightly off-topic perhaps but in October I finally moved my Pillar 3A - after 8 years of languishing in Credit Suisse - to VIAC, as many on this forum recommended.

At the start of November 2020, after VIAC received my money I allocated most of my 3A fund to their standard global growth / 100% equities option. In 2 months I'm 13.3% up. Obviously I'm not saying that anyone else would be so fortunate, nor am I expecting the fund to continue to grow like that. But just making the point that letting your wealth languish in cash is rarely a good option. Pillar 3A is a bit of scam in any case, so if you've put cash in over the years, as I have, you might as well try to make it work for you.



If that's true - and I do believe pretty much everything that FMF says - then I'm staggered. I've occasionally flirted with shorting but this info is like a bucket of iced water over the feverish investor's head. I'll give it a miss.
My 3a was hopelessly languishing in PF with meager interests 0.1% or so for much too long (many years). In 2017, I moved it to CS and asked to have it invested in equities. However, I chose defensive package with minimum exposure to the market. Foolish decision back then. It only made me 6% up to date or around 4k. Now I’m considering asking the CS to invest it all in equities with maximal exposure to the market or ask to have it transferred to: https://finpension.ch/en/3a/ and have it fully invested in equities.

What’s better choice in your opinion? Abandon the bank completely or negotiate with them.
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  #75  
Old 12.01.2021, 11:06
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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Not enough money invested outside of 3a to move to IB and do stuff myself without fees though (afaik you need 100k at least), so currently using a fire-and-forget robotrader (truewealth).
You might want to reassess that.

I don't know with which exact sums are you working with, but quickly looking at the TW fees, I see
- 0.5% p.a. management fee (<500k portfolio)
- up to 0.15% of Swiss stamp tax duty per transaction
- 0.1% forex fee

Let's talk in 10k portfolio, and one 1k purchase:
- 50 CHF management fee
- 15 CHF stamp tax duty (plenty more if you do more than that one purchase per year)
- 10CHF forex fee (if they buy a non-hedged global ETF; hedging it in CHF is potentially even worse long term performance-wise)
So, ~75CHF/year if you only buy once per year.
If you do it on a quarterly basis (75+45=120CHF) you are already better off with IB.
And those 10k and the related management fee is only going to keep going up...

+ You have no choice regarding what is exactly being invested in - which would be very important to me (e.g. bonds, or for some - gold and REITs, would be out of the question).


In IB, those 10USD that you would pay per month, i.e. 120USD/year (107CHF today), include all of the transaction and forex fees (unless you cross 10 USD worth of them per month), and there is no Swiss stamp tax duty.
P.S. regarding fund choice - VT is a no brainer to begin with, until and if you wish to learn more and deviate from a global market cap.

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Pillar 3A is a bit of scam in any case
Why do you think that?
Is it perfectly non-scam if you use it with the correct expectations.

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Now I’m considering asking the CS to invest it all in equities with maximal exposure to the market or ask to have it transferred to: https://finpension.ch/en/3a/ and have it fully invested in equities.

What’s better choice in your opinion? Abandon the bank completely or negotiate with them.
Those 3a assets with CS are probably invested with some active funds of theirs - what is the fee they are charging you for it?
At UBS they were taking 2.5% or so back then - of course I jumped ship the moment VIAC showed up.

I believe a clear answer is to get out into one of the digital solutions, and control your own investments via passive ETFs, at 5x cheaper rate.

Last edited by gipfelisturmer; 12.01.2021 at 11:18.
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  #76  
Old 12.01.2021, 11:22
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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You might want to reassess that.

I don't know with which exact sums are you working with, but quickly looking at the TW fees, I see
- 0.5% p.a. management fee (<500k portfolio)
- up to 0.15% of Swiss stamp tax duty per transaction
- 0.1% forex fee

Let's talk in 10k portfolio, and one 1k purchase:
- 50 CHF management fee
- 15 CHF stamp tax duty (plenty more if you do more than that one purchase per year)
- 10CHF forex fee (if they buy a non-hedged global ETF; hedging it in CHF is potentially even worse long term performance-wise)
So, ~75CHF/year if you only buy once per year.
If you do it on a quarterly basis (75+45=120CHF) you are already better off with IB.
And those 10k and the related management fee is only going to keep going up...

+ You have no choice regarding what is exactly being invested in - which would be very important to me (e.g. bonds, or for some - gold and REITs, would be out of the question).


In IB, those 10USD that you would pay per month, i.e. 120USD/year (107CHF today), include all of the transaction and forex fees (unless you cross 10 USD worth of them per month), and there is no Swiss stamp tax duty.
P.S. regarding fund choice - VT is a no brainer to begin with, until and if you wish to learn more and deviate from a global market cap.


Why do you think that?
Is it perfectly non-scam if you use it with the correct expectations.



Those 3a assets with CS are probably invested with some active funds of theirs - what is the fee they are charging you for it?
At UBS they were taking 2.5% or so back then - of course I jumped ship the moment VIAC showed up.

I believe a clear answer is to get out into one of the digital solutions, and control your own investments via passive ETFs, at 5x cheaper rate.
For less than 100k Degiro is much cheaper than IB.
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  #77  
Old 12.01.2021, 11:41
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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For less than 100k Degiro is much cheaper than IB.
May be.
Cool thing with them is the choice of free ETFs (didn't look which exact ones, but I assume something Vanguard World like is available).
Degiro is now acquired/merged by Flatex - not sure how/if that changes anything.

My response was comparing TrueWealth and IB, as the quoted post was commenting on those.

And one needs to keep in mind the future:
Hopefully the portfolio grows above 100k relatively quickly - and transferring positions after the fact also incurs certain costs.

Last edited by gipfelisturmer; 12.01.2021 at 12:08.
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Old 12.01.2021, 11:55
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

I found many discussion about which platform is more suitable:

https://www.investorgreg.net/compare...-vs-swissquote

https://www.mypersonalfinance.ch/why...-swiss-brokers

https://www.brokerxplorer.com/compar...-vs-swissquote

https://comparebrokers.co/swissquote...ractivebrokers

General conclusion that IB is winning most of the time.
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  #79  
Old 12.01.2021, 12:00
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

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My 3a was hopelessly languishing in PF with meager interests 0.1% or so for much too long (many years). In 2017, I moved it to CS and asked to have it invested in equities. However, I chose defensive package with minimum exposure to the market. Foolish decision back then. It only made me 6% up to date or around 4k. Now I’m considering asking the CS to invest it all in equities with maximal exposure to the market or ask to have it transferred to: https://finpension.ch/en/3a/ and have it fully invested in equities.

What’s better choice in your opinion? Abandon the bank completely or negotiate with them.
Abandon. I think the most interesting fund in Finpension is the MSCI World Ex CH Quality. If you are a high tax payer that might be a decent option even in the long term.
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Old 12.01.2021, 13:31
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Re: How much you are able to invest in stock market?

on the website they state a variable stamp duty so it wasn't clear to me that it applies at every purchase with the max 0.15%.
For now i have the referral bonus so i pay 0.25% per year, i guess i need to plan to switch to IB as as you said, the invested capital will likely cross 100k within a few years max.

I'm just not very confident about moving large amounts of money into equities this year in case we are in a bubble.
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