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  #21  
Old 05.04.2021, 19:19
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Re: Double Pension question

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Yup it is a bit of a loophole and one that is worth exploiting while still available. I've seen it possible to pay back 6 years, but haven't seen as much as 12 before!
You can, I just filled the gap from 2009 to 2020 on Class II (counts as self employment if working outside UK). Just under 1700 quid via (Transfer)Wise, cost covered in under a year of pension payments. (£138 -> £175.20 pw, quite a few years until then but still).
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  #22  
Old 05.04.2021, 19:38
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Re: Double Pension question

Hi there,

How you calculate 1st pillar? I was under impression that you need 45 years in Switzerland to get 100%?

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Hi all,

I'm 57 and have lived here for 32 years, even shocking to write that somehow, doesn't time fly..My 1st pillar is about 3 years short of being 100%, which means a shortfall of about 300.- a month from the full amount.
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  #23  
Old 05.04.2021, 21:52
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Re: Double Pension question

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There might even be the possibility to pay class 2 contributions (£150 a year instead of £780 or so) or a mix (as I was advised by HMRC) for which you have to apply for and which I certainly have.. awaiting the result with baited breath!
Thank you for this thread which triggered me to look into my situation

I am over 10 years younger than you. Despite the longer time to retirement HMRC website says I need to pay the same as you to buy each missing year (between £780-795.60)

If this is the price to gain GBP5 per week UK state pension at age 67 (or 68 or 70...?) my conclusion is that buying years now doesn't make sense in my case. I can invest the cash so that by retirement age it would earn more £5 per week

I will contact HMRC to enquire about class 2 contributions which might change the equation
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  #24  
Old 05.04.2021, 22:11
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Re: Double Pension question

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Hi all,

I'm 57 and have lived here for 32 years, even shocking to write that somehow, doesn't time fly..

... I started looking at my UK state pension, where it seems I have 12 qualifying years. Strangely, I can buy (class3, possibly cheaper class 2..) up to 24 years of voluntary contributions, back to 2006 and up until I retire here (and 2 years later, at 67, in the UK).


As you've been in Switzerland for 32 years, so I guess you left UK when were 25, how come you have 12 qualifying years for the UK pension? Did you already pay for some of those 12 years after you arrived in Switzerland?
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  #25  
Old 05.04.2021, 22:46
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Re: Double Pension question

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You can, I just filled the gap from 2009 to 2020 on Class II (counts as self employment if working outside UK). Just under 1700 quid via (Transfer)Wise, cost covered in under a year of pension payments. (£138 -> £175.20 pw, quite a few years until then but still).
Probabably just because the cases I'd seen the people hadn't been out of the UK for so long...
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  #26  
Old 06.04.2021, 08:20
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Re: Double Pension question

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Probabably just because the cases I'd seen the people hadn't been out of the UK for so long...
It seems there is a temporary exception. I suspect this may be related to the implementation of new state pension in 2016

HMRC website:
“ You can sometimes pay for gaps from more than 6 years ago, depending on your age.

You’re a man born after 5 April 1951 or a woman born after 5 April 1953
You have until 5 April 2023 to pay voluntary contributions to make up for gaps between April 2006 and April 2016.”
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  #27  
Old 06.04.2021, 22:33
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Re: Double Pension question

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As you've been in Switzerland for 32 years, so I guess you left UK when were 25, how come you have 12 qualifying years for the UK pension? Did you already pay for some of those 12 years after you arrived in Switzerland?
yes, 3. I had nine when I arrived, possibly the year when I arrived I also paid class 3, I don't remember now, making 12

Last edited by fz750; 06.04.2021 at 22:44.
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  #28  
Old 06.04.2021, 22:51
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Re: Double Pension question

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Thank you for this thread which triggered me to look into my situation

I am over 10 years younger than you. Despite the longer time to retirement HMRC website says I need to pay the same as you to buy each missing year (between £780-795.60)

If this is the price to gain GBP5 per week UK state pension at age 67 (or 68 or 70...?) my conclusion is that buying years now doesn't make sense in my case. I can invest the cash so that by retirement age it would earn more £5 per week

I will contact HMRC to enquire about class 2 contributions which might change the equation
if I were you, i'd calculate again, it's not £5 extra

I currently have a quote based on my existing contributions of £60 a week. the HMRC site says if I pay all that I can (backwards and forwards, around 20k GBP, even at class 3 rates) I will get £175 a week instead. About £6k extra a year.

Work that out from aged 67 to an average life span of 82 even, it's a lot of money to not be getting if you can for little investment compared to the crappy ROI you get paying into a second pillar here or just saving and praying for some interest..
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  #29  
Old 07.04.2021, 00:12
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Re: Double Pension question

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Hi there,

How you calculate 1st pillar? I was under impression that you need 45 years in Switzerland to get 100%?
You can complete and this and see approx:

https://www.ahv-iv.ch/de/Merkblätter...chätzung-ESCAL


Depends also what will happen here in the next 8 years, seems to be a goal of government to reduce their pension load, which will be an interesting fight with all the people on the landing path to retirement..
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  #30  
Old 07.04.2021, 09:19
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Re: Double Pension question

Yes, I know this website, however after getting estimate click "edit income" and you'll find 45 lines for each year. Make sure you modify accordingly to your work experience and do recalculation.

Or, when filling in the form choose OASI insurance period which matches time you contributed to the system.

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You can complete and this and see approx:

https://www.ahv-iv.ch/de/Merkblätter...chätzung-ESCAL


Depends also what will happen here in the next 8 years, seems to be a goal of government to reduce their pension load, which will be an interesting fight with all the people on the landing path to retirement..
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  #31  
Old 07.04.2021, 09:23
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Re: Double Pension question

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Depends also what will happen here in the next 8 years, seems to be a goal of government to reduce their pension load, which will be an interesting fight with all the people on the landing path to retirement..
Covid has helped in this regard.
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  #32  
Old 07.04.2021, 09:35
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Re: Double Pension question

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if I were you, i'd calculate again, it's not £5 extra

I currently have a quote based on my existing contributions of £60 a week. the HMRC site says if I pay all that I can (backwards and forwards, around 20k GBP, even at class 3 rates) I will get £175 a week instead. About £6k extra a year.

Work that out from aged 67 to an average life span of 82 even, it's a lot of money to not be getting if you can for little investment compared to the crappy ROI you get paying into a second pillar here or just saving and praying for some interest..
My ROI is higher. If I bought all missing years now and had to pay the price of class 3 contributions (price increased to £800 to buy each missing year) I would lose 20+ years of stock market returns. I would need to live to 95 for it to make sense -that’s assuming the rules don’t change.

The thing is a missing year costs the same regardless of age. To optimise the time value of money it would make sense to plan to purchase years at the latest date to get to the maximum of 35 qualifying years before retirement age

However I believe I qualify to buy the missing years at the price of Class 2 contributions (about £160/yr instead of £800) and have sent off the necessary application form. If confirmed I will immediately buy all the missing years I can before someone realises it’s a loophole

I have also requested a status for my non UK National wife who worked 2-3 years in Uk to see if she has any optimisation opportunity

Last edited by jim1; 07.04.2021 at 09:37. Reason: Typo
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  #33  
Old 07.04.2021, 15:33
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Re: Double Pension question

OP... with the cool motorbike (sure you wanna keep riding that thing.. you might never get any pension !)

So we are in similar boats. I've just turned 59. I logged on to the uk gov site.

It says (all in GBP)
  • Estimate based on your National Insurance record up to 5 April 2020 = X
  • Forecast if you contribute until 5 April 2028 = Y
  • The most you can increase your forecast to is = Z = 175.20 (the max for everyone)

It then shows missing contributions going back to 2006 - 2007 = 800 per year = 14 x 800 = 11,200

So.. presumably.. I get X if I continue to do nothing

What's not clear is how I get to Y. Is that 'just pay in missing contributions' or 'pay in missing contributions AND all subsequent yearly contributions from now until retirement'.

And.. can I get to Z ?
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  #34  
Old 07.04.2021, 15:52
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Re: Double Pension question

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OP... with the cool motorbike (sure you wanna keep riding that thing.. you might never get any pension !)

So we are in similar boats. I've just turned 59. I logged on to the uk gov site.

It says (all in GBP)
  • Estimate based on your National Insurance record up to 5 April 2020 = X
  • Forecast if you contribute until 5 April 2028 = Y
  • The most you can increase your forecast to is = Z = 175.20 (the max for everyone)

It then shows missing contributions going back to 2006 - 2007 = 800 per year = 14 x 800 = 11,200

So.. presumably.. I get X if I continue to do nothing

What's not clear is how I get to Y. Is that 'just pay in missing contributions' or 'pay in missing contributions AND all subsequent yearly contributions from now until retirement'.

And.. can I get to Z ?
You should be able to pay class 2 @£3.05 a week if you were employed when you came to CH. 35 years of contributions gives you a full uk pension.

I just looked at my forecast shown below
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  #35  
Old 07.04.2021, 16:19
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Re: Double Pension question

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You should be able to pay class 2 @£3.05 a week if you were employed when you came to CH. 35 years of contributions gives you a full uk pension.
Thanks .. but how did you get to £3.05 ?

(because 35 x 52 x 3.05 is only £5551 which I would happily pay to go from my current forecast to the max possible)

btw.. just been on hold with UK hotline for 30 mins before giving up
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  #36  
Old 07.04.2021, 16:31
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Re: Double Pension question

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Thanks .. but how did you get to £3.05 ?

(because 35 x 52 x 3.05 is only £5551 which I would happily pay to go from my current forecast to the max possible)

btw.. just been on hold with UK hotline for 30 mins before giving up
£3.05 is the weekly rate for class 2 (normally self employed in UK)

I paid about 10 years at class 3 about £550 at year back then & stopped when 40 years requirement became 30 years. The rules changed to 35 years however class 2 became an option, it was not an option originally so I paid 5 years at £3.05 a week.
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  #37  
Old 07.04.2021, 16:49
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Re: Double Pension question

OK thanks.. but.. .. I don't understand 'class 2 / 3' .. it's not mentioned on the .gov site and I've never been self employed.. so.. not sure if that is relevant.

I'm still left wondering what Her Majesty's mandarins mean by:

Forecast if you contribute until 5 April 2028


If I start contributing from now.. or if I fill in missing payments... or both
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  #38  
Old 07.04.2021, 16:52
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Re: Double Pension question

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OK thanks.. but.. .. I don't understand 'class 2 / 3' .. it's not mentioned on the .gov site and I've never been self employed.. so.. not sure if that is relevant.

I'm still left wondering what Her Majesty's mandarins mean by:

Forecast if you contribute until 5 April 2028


If I start contributing from now.. or if I fill in missing payments... or both
Google Class 2 contributions it is relevant, which is why I mentioned it.

I will do some research, my first google search "uk voluntary contributions when abroad" https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-if-you-go-abroad
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  #39  
Old 07.04.2021, 17:03
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Re: Double Pension question

Ah !

This could be a big deal.. and applies to the OP

On https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-nationa...-contributions

it says

Living and working abroad Class 2 - but only if you worked in the UK immediately before leaving, and you’ve previously lived in the UK for at least 3 years in a row or paid at least 3 years of contributions

--- which applies to me

and a class 2 contribution is, as you say, only 3 quid a week

So.. maybe.. those forecasts I was looking at are assuming I'm living and working in the UK

and .. because I'm paying into CH 'state pension'.. I only have to pay 'class 2' for the time I've been / will be in CH prior to UK retirement ????

That would be a big win.. guess I'll have to wait for someone to pick up the phone in the UK
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  #40  
Old 07.04.2021, 17:08
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Re: Double Pension question

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Ah !

This could be a big deal.. and applies to the OP

On https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-nationa...-contributions

it says

Living and working abroad Class 2 - but only if you worked in the UK immediately before leaving, and you’ve previously lived in the UK for at least 3 years in a row or paid at least 3 years of contributions

--- which applies to me

and a class 2 contribution is, as you say, only 3 quid a week

So.. maybe.. those forecasts I was looking at are assuming I'm living and working in the UK

and .. because I'm paying into CH 'state pension'.. I only have to pay 'class 2' for the time I've been / will be in CH prior to UK retirement ????

That would be a big win.. guess I'll have to wait for someone to pick up the phone in the UK
You only need to pay class 2, if you fit the rules as you stated. It worked for me when I applied around 2013
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